Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
|
|
|
Economical Crisis in Spain
|
You are logged in as Guest
|
|
Users viewing this topic: none
|
|
Login  | |
|
   
BarkellWH
Posts: 3460
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
|
 RE: Economical Crisis in Spain (in reply to chester)
|
|
|
quote:
Unfortunately the only feasible solution I can think of is a mass-scale revolt (akin to the Russian worker revolution) that will result in massive losses to everyone involved.
The Russian Revolution was neither a "mass-scale revolt" nor a "Russian worker revolution." It was a revolution executed by the Bolsheviks, who were, in fact, a small, tightly-knit group of elite revolutionaries. (Lenin and Trotsky certainly were not "workers," nor were their lieutenants and followers.) The reason Lenin resorted to this elite "vanguard" is because he realized that, in Marxist terms, Russia was not industrialized sufficiently for a large enough pool of disaffected workers to successfully revolt. I agree that It certainly did result in massive losses for everyone, except for the Soviet leadership. In comparison, I'll take our bankers, politicians, and regulators any day. We do have a say in how our governments are run.
And there is this to consider: How many fellow citizens in each of our countries contributed to the financial mess in which we find ourselves by demanding from our governments an ever-expanding social welfare net and cradle-to-grave security, even though it was apparent to everyone that the expenditures required to maintain it far exceeded revenue? How many were happy enough to buy houses at prices that were outrageous, but they gambled that real estate would always appreciate in value? Not everyone was "duped" by unscrupulous mortgage lenders. There were plenty who understood the risk and were willing to take it. We have met the enemy, and he is, at least in part, us!
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Nov. 29 2010 19:50:20
 |
|
Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
|
|
RE: Economical Crisis in Spain (in reply to gounaro)
|
|
|
There is much too much pragmatism implied.
First, this isn´t the first crisis in recent years. There has been huge clear away on stock markets several times before over the past two decades. Only that the latest skim off outmatched the predeceding ones, including real estate markets and investment banking.
Eventhough I see analytical understanding in some posts like e.g. of Ron. M.´s, it still isn´t straight enough yet to capture the actual criminal energy and unscrupulousness behind the processes going on.
The things happening aren´t "mistakes". It is savings and tax money that purposefully switches possession. And the direction it does so, definitly is neither being coincidence nor accident. No mistake.
With the last coup 52 trillion USD worth have vaporized and it is about time at the latest for people to understand that things are not what they are labelled.
"Democracies" in place are no democracies, leading "officials" are not in their places to pursue citizen matters, neither are "governments".
Fact is that instead mafia is internationally reigning in an entirely out of hand, unethical, inhuman and irresponsible, on archaic set based economical system.
How much of privatisation, smudged "subsidies", one-sided law making and jurisdiction, parliamental and elsewise immunity and usury will an over centuries brainwashed public be needing to finally realize the consequential depth and systematics on the matter?
How much intellect does it really need to understand what it means when states hand out money to banks and insider privatiers at "nominal" interest ( say "for nada") only to have them lend it back to the individual state itself at current market interest, as well as to the very fellow men the money had beforehand been collected from as tax?
How much cognitive skills does it take to understand the background when there is no resume of "subsidies" to be found anywhere in a state´s household?
How much cognitive skills does it take to tot that one is, all tax collecting forms in account, being taxed to ~ about 80% of his income as imployee?
How much cognitive skills does it take to take average wage as measure, and figure from there what irrational pricing is, let alone excessive usury as with policies of pharmaceutical industries or insurances?
How much cognitive skills does it take to understand the actual ethcis behind official stage when for instance one of two hologram stamps intended for Euro bills to be printed, vanishes from a guarded military plane, without either investigation to where it went neither simple replacement of the stamps through a new design?
How much cognitive skills does it take to sense reality when a chancellor shreds state´s files to destroy evidence on his doings at the end of his legislature, with him not only not being proscecuted, but even celebrated as a fine statesman?
How much cognitive skills does it take to get an idea of what is going on when German politicians shut up and even sign up immunity of Swiss´banking secret just weeks ago, after Swiss representatives threatened to publish bribe bank accounts of German top politicians, early this year?
It needs deconstructivistic thinking to get beyond common detouched thinking method, yet no all too overwhelming deal of brain work.
Right; it depresses and ruins sleep to let actual circumstances reach consciousness in their full abysmal dimension.
But in place of such, commonly bypassing desperate entity is precisely what has led us to staus quo.
The buddhist principle spread all over our civilisation, of believing that there couldn´t be what you don´t watch, is an inane attitude unworthy menkind and its actual intellectual capacity.
Prices in Spain will drop, but you very likely won´t be shoping any better, except if being seated high enough on the `sunny side´ of the subhuman treatmill.
Ruphus
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Nov. 30 2010 14:28:13
|
|
Pgh_flamenco
Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
|
|
RE: Economical Crisis in Spain (in reply to veet)
|
|
|
quote:
@PGH- Unfair to the bankers? Seriously? Though blame can be spread all around, it all comes back to a common mass hysteria, the belief that "real estate ALWAYS goes up in value". That myth is what sunk the system, what conned buyers into the notion that their loan didn't matter because they could pay it off out of the growing value of the property. Of the 2 groups, lenders and the buyers, only one got paid their fat fees up front, took the money and ran. Hint:It was not the "unqualified buyers."
Greed did this, the greed of a financial industry unhindered by adult supervision. The second myth that enabled all this was deregulation, the notion that the "invisible hand of the free market" needs no policing. Decades of deregulation pushed by the Republican agenda took the cop off the beat, and took all risk out of the game for the high rollers.
The notion that a person’s home is an investment is a recent one and is a product of the economic growth of the last 60 years. It’s generally not true and homes are usually poor investments when compared to the rate of return a person would get in the stock market.
I don’t think bankers are any more dishonest than they’ve ever been. The main differences today are social factors and the rising cost of energy and raw materials. Homeownership became part of the “American dream” and the federal government jumped on the bandwagon. Banks are overwhelmed by all of their foreclosure properties. There’s a house behind mine that went into foreclosure over two years ago and Chase hasn’t taken the property yet—it’s still in the owner’s name. With bankers you’ve chosen an easy scapegoat, but easy answers don’t solve problems.
The current crisis would not have happened without the big increase in energy prices. This crisis is the fault of everyone taken collectively who didn’t plan ahead and who wouldn’t accept less. The current—and I suspect future--economic situation has forced most people into a self-imposed austerity program. With almost seven billion people on a planet that can only provide for eight billion there are bound to be problems.
_____________________________
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 2 2010 0:39:00
|
|
BarkellWH
Posts: 3460
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
|
|
RE: Economical Crisis in Spain (in reply to henrym3483)
|
|
|
quote:
lads its the international criminal banking cartel pulling the strings, and the bailout is being done in ireland so that American, UK, German and French banks (which invested in these crazy irish banks, which it is now showing they had afore-knowledge of their reckless lending and investment practices) get their money bank and protect THEIR BONDHOLDERS.
American banks are not heavily invested in Irish banks. Nevertheless, do you actually believe that the "international criminal banking cartel" is pulling the strings? What is your evidence of an international banking cartel coordinating the Irish crisis in a criminal manner? And if you think the bailout is part of this international banking cartel's criminal activity, what would you suggest as an alternative to the bailout?
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 2 2010 1:37:33
|
|
Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
|
|
RE: Economical Crisis in Spain (in reply to gounaro)
|
|
|
quote:
Greed did this, the greed of a financial industry unhindered by adult supervision. The second myth that enabled all this was deregulation, the notion that the "invisible hand of the free market" needs no policing. Decades of deregulation pushed by the Republican agenda took the cop off the beat, and took all risk out of the game for the high rollers.
Well observed.
Of the mass manipulating paroles enforced in the past decades one has been the one about deregulation. A legitimation to squeeze out consumers and interpret that such could be of benefit to them in the same time. Simply paradox, and indicating that autonomous thinking and coherence mustn´t be counted with within a systematically incapacitated common sense.
Another maxim implanted was the one according to which privatizing states infrastructure, real estate, supply and services would be equalling efficiency.
A claim never proven before the agenda; foreseeable and naturally shown as inherent nonesense.
But what it was good for has been the grossly intensified sell-out of states properties; if practical gifting for nothing would be counting as "selling". ( For with the common privatisation procedure if money been paid at all, it being returned through subsidies within the first years after pocketing. - On top of the usual, unhindered price explosion following right after privatisation.)
That way, over the past ~ 25 years most industrialized states have been robbed of almost their complete properties ( often times around 90%). Properties originally financed through hugh investments of tax money, bargained and gifted away, only for unabashed, subsequent further milking off by the new owners through excessive raising of fees and prices.
That way state´s households have become systems which for the vast of citizens only have one direction of cash flow anymore, which is intake to the states. With almost all states services these day being due to charge. Sometimes even service of fire brigades, police operation or just a paper copy in offices.
Whilst for the new onwers of formerly official plants things look diametrally opposite. They can use the annexated facilities to squeeze from customers boundlessly, yet claim for subsidies with compliant officials justifying states donations as preservation of working places.
quote:
homes are usually poor investments when compared to the rate of return a person would get in the stock market.
That sounds as if stock markets where reasonably predictable like they used to until decades ago, and ignores the circumstance that times are over since quotes of shares were basically related to performance of companies.
Today instead stock markets in the end arebeing completely arbitrary due to collusion and gaming of funds, capable enough to steer exchange markets to their liking.
Yet not obviously enough, after the past two decades?
quote:
And now the banks are pressing the governments to guarantee their bonds!
In fact there isn´t really pressure needed, as states being capital-owned.
Just in Berlin we have 5000 lobbyists ensuring the running, stuffed with official ID-cards to freely frequent the parliament.
How many yet do you have swarming around in Washington?
quote:
And if you think the bailout is part of this international banking cartel's criminal activity, what would you suggest as an alternative to the bailout?
No bailout.
The claim after which national economies had to collapse if banks weren´t bailed out, is a hoax.
Apart of the fact that you could ask yourself how financially potential undertakings like banks wouldn´t be due ever since to entertain business-related sufficient hedge.
And while at that:
How does the fact that banks are relieve of market law, with states nourishing them by supplying them tax money nominally, in the same time allowing them to use that money to lend it back to state and citizens with hundreds and thousands percent upcharge in interest?
Can´t such odd bonanza make halt and think from ground up, yet after hearing of it?
In case that it could:
Imagine:
If governments were to be authentic legation of the people, neither banks nor insurances or real estate brokers could be in Cockaigne as they are. For these services would only logically be conducted by states with rational recompense.
quote:
There is no international banking cartel, criminal or otherwise, but the way bank staff have been paid before and during the crisis is disgusting, unacceptable and must be stopped.
No cartel?!
Better not to feed from FOX news, maybe rather observe somewhat serious papers like the Washington Post, New York Times or thelikes.
Pretty much all of produce and service, except niches supplied by small manufactureres, fix market conditions by price gauging, cartels and engaging the state with keeping international competition down through customs ( in an elsewise allegedly free market!).
Despite of little investigation anymore / informative degeneration and press concertation through media combines over the past ~ 15 years, just the disclosures of bypassed cartel members themselves are regularly delivering headlines since roughly ten years, only disposing the tip of the iceberg.
Check it out.
Ruphus
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 2 2010 10:28:44
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts
|
|
|
Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET |
0.09375 secs.
|
Printable Version
You just write some ideas but i live the reality! 
