Question about my new brazilian friend

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ralexander

Posts: 797
Joined: Jun. 1 2010
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia

Question about my new brazilian friend

Question for those in the know - what cut is my brazilian back? Quartersawn is easy to spot, but I'm not quite sure how to tell riftsawn from flatsawn - pics in this thread:

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=153560&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 29 2010 1:06:03

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Question about my new brazilian ... (in reply to ralexander)

It's mainly slab cut with a little slanted quarter but not much. Brazilian runs every which way but this is cut lengthwise so the grain runs the length of the back.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 29 2010 1:26:56

ralexander

Posts: 797
Joined: Jun. 1 2010
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia

RE: Question about my new brazilian ... (in reply to ralexander)

Thanks Tom. Anything but quartersawn seems to get a bad rap - what's your opinion on slab cut? This guitar has a couple issues but nothing serious so far. There are a couple of hairline cracks at the end block that apparently haven't changed in 15 years. There's also a small separation of the center strip on the back right by where the slipper foot sits.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 29 2010 2:56:37

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Question about my new brazilian ... (in reply to ralexander)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ralexander

Thanks Tom. Anything but quartersawn seems to get a bad rap - what's your opinion on slab cut? This guitar has a couple issues but nothing serious so far. There are a couple of hairline cracks at the end block that apparently haven't changed in 15 years. There's also a small separation of the center strip on the back right by where the slipper foot sits.

I like slab cut as long as its good and dry, and cracks are not a major issue if they aren't too open with the weather, or in a place of great stress.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 29 2010 10:09:09

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3432
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Question about my new brazilian ... (in reply to ralexander)

When i ordered my spruce/Brazilian classical from Abel Garcia, he showed me several sets of Brazilian. I picked the most perfectly quarter sawn set. I told him the top was his choice because he was the expert.

Then I asked him which Brazilian set he would have picked. He indicated a slab sawn set, "Because it is softer."

I had played two of Garcia's instruments before. One was a Hauser/Romanillos size instrument, the main instrument at the time (may still be) of Carlos Bernal. Bernal is a Mexican who lives in Switzerland and teaches in a conservatory there. He concertizes extensively in Europe. He gave an all-20th century concert at the 2003 GFA.

The other Garcia guitar I had played was the one he made for his daughter, modeled more or less on one of Torres' smaller instruments.

Both were slab cut, and both were fabulous guitars. Garcia noted that uniform slab cut Brazilian was less likely to crack than quarter sawn.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 29 2010 20:59:37

a_arnold

Posts: 558
Joined: Jul. 30 2006

RE: Question about my new brazilian ... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

slab cut with a little slanted quarter but not much

So, Tom:
The slanted quartersawn is the part near the centerline where the grain is closer?

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"Flamenco is so emotionally direct that a trained classical musician would require many years of highly disciplined formal study to fail to understand it."

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 30 2010 17:36:13

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Question about my new brazilian ... (in reply to a_arnold)

quote:

ORIGINAL: a_arnold

quote:

slab cut with a little slanted quarter but not much

So, Tom:
The slanted quartersawn is the part near the centerline where the grain is closer?

It appears to be that way but the odd part with some rosewoods, or any wood for that matter, is that they can be somewhat quartered and slab in the same board.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 30 2010 17:47:12

a_arnold

Posts: 558
Joined: Jul. 30 2006

RE: Question about my new brazilian ... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: a_arnold

quote:

slab cut with a little slanted quarter but not much

So, Tom:
The slanted quartersawn is the part near the centerline where the grain is closer?

It appears to be that way but the odd part with some rosewoods, or any wood for that matter, is that they can be somewhat quartered and slab in the same board.

Sorry, Tom, I was unclear: I meant the centerline of the guitar above (rather than the center of the tree), where the grain is closer. Is that the part that is somewhat quartered?

_____________________________

"Flamenco is so emotionally direct that a trained classical musician would require many years of highly disciplined formal study to fail to understand it."

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2010 19:47:44

ralexander

Posts: 797
Joined: Jun. 1 2010
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia

RE: Question about my new brazilian ... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

quote:

When i ordered my spruce/Brazilian classical from Abel Garcia, he showed me several sets of Brazilian. I picked the most perfectly quarter sawn set. I told him the top was his choice because he was the expert.

Then I asked him which Brazilian set he would have picked. He indicated a slab sawn set, "Because it is softer."

I had played two of Garcia's instruments before. One was a Hauser/Romanillos size instrument, the main instrument at the time (may still be) of Carlos Bernal. Bernal is a Mexican who lives in Switzerland and teaches in a conservatory there. He concertizes extensively in Europe. He gave an all-20th century concert at the 2003 GFA.

The other Garcia guitar I had played was the one he made for his daughter, modeled more or less on one of Torres' smaller instruments.

Both were slab cut, and both were fabulous guitars. Garcia noted that uniform slab cut Brazilian was less likely to crack than quarter sawn.

RNJ

Interesting, thanks for sharing that Richard. I'm glad I took a chance on this guitar based on the opinion of the previous owner. Passing it up because it's not fully quartersawn BRW would have been a mistake. The Pedro De Miguel team worked at Ramirez for many years and obviously knew what they were doing.

An interesting but unproven piece of info about this guitar - apparently it was made for Jeronimo Maya. At least that's what they told my friend when he bought it from the Pedro De Miguel shop in 1996. I've been meaning to contact Miguel Rodriguez to see if he remembers anything about this.

Tony - when Tom mentioned slanted quartersawn, I assumed he was referring to that section on either side of the centerline on the back. I'm also curious to know what causes those wormhole type spots near the waist on both sides. I figured it must have been an insect of some kind.

I've always read about the superior stability of quartersawn wood, but there are small hairline cracks right at the endblock of this guitar although the sides appear quartersawn. This pic isn't the best but you can see what I mean:

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2010 20:36:22

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Question about my new brazilian ... (in reply to a_arnold)

quote:

ORIGINAL: a_arnold

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: a_arnold

quote:

slab cut with a little slanted quarter but not much

So, Tom:
The slanted quartersawn is the part near the centerline where the grain is closer?

It appears to be that way but the odd part with some rosewoods, or any wood for that matter, is that they can be somewhat quartered and slab in the same board.

Sorry, Tom, I was unclear: I meant the centerline of the guitar above (rather than the center of the tree), where the grain is closer. Is that the part that is somewhat quartered?

That's what I meant, you can have some slab and quartered in the same board. It appears to be somewhat quartered at the center of the guitar's back and slab cut toward the outside edges. This is really how the tree is cut and it seems that most of the board was slab cut, not actually quarter cut.

You can look at the end grain on a board of some wood and see some quartered on one side and then it curves and becomes slab the rest of the way across the end grain of the board. So I would determine that this is not necessarily a quartered piece of wood.

It appears to have a little quarter at the center of the back but the run-out toward the edges is slab cut.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2010 21:46:48

a_arnold

Posts: 558
Joined: Jul. 30 2006

RE: Question about my new brazilian ... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

That's what I meant, you can have some slab and quartered in the same board. It appears to be somewhat quartered at the center of the guitar's back and slab cut toward the outside edges. This is really how the tree is cut and it seems that most of the board was slab cut, not actually quarter cut.

Thanks, Tom. That makes sense to me. Most BRW looks like this in my experience. Is it possible to get true quartersawn (or even riftsawn?!?) BRW in pieces wide enough for the back? I mean, legality aside, do the trees grow that big?

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"Flamenco is so emotionally direct that a trained classical musician would require many years of highly disciplined formal study to fail to understand it."

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2010 22:28:21

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Question about my new brazilian ... (in reply to ralexander)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ralexander

I've always read about the superior stability of quartersawn wood, but there are small hairline cracks right at the endblock of this guitar although the sides appear quartersawn. This pic isn't the best but you can see what I mean:

Well, I wouldn't call those hairline cracks. Looks like checking caused by inadequately cured wood to me.

Re: stability of quartersawn wood
Any wood can check if it's not cured properly and generally hardwoods are more susceptable to cracking/checking than softwoods. Given a choice I would always prefer quarter sawn wood because it's much easier to cure and to mill (hence more stabile).

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John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2010 22:33:24

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Question about my new brazilian ... (in reply to a_arnold)

quote:

ORIGINAL: a_arnold

quote:

That's what I meant, you can have some slab and quartered in the same board. It appears to be somewhat quartered at the center of the guitar's back and slab cut toward the outside edges. This is really how the tree is cut and it seems that most of the board was slab cut, not actually quarter cut.

Thanks, Tom. That makes sense to me. Most BRW looks like this in my experience. Is it possible to get true quartersawn (or even riftsawn?!?) BRW in pieces wide enough for the back? I mean, legality aside, do the trees grow that big?

I couldn't tell about today's rosewood sources but I think most of it is gone from its original areas and only available from guitar makers that have had a stash in their shops for a long time. There are a few varieties of rosewood in Brazil but the old Rio, Dalbergia Nigra, has all been harvested, for the most part, with perhaps a very small quantity that might be out there, and is now protected by the Cities Treaty.

And about the cracking of your brazilian rosewood guitar. I don't know of any guitar maker that will guarantee their BRW guitars against cracking.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2010 23:10:01

ralexander

Posts: 797
Joined: Jun. 1 2010
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia

RE: Question about my new brazilian ... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

And about the cracking of your brazilian rosewood guitar. I don't know of any guitar maker that will guarantee their BRW guitars against cracking.

Yeah, me neither. The cracks don't bother me at all, and apparently they have been the same since 1996. Anyway, it sounds great so I`m