Two's

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Two's

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Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

Two's

I tell you this, tapping out two's with your foot when playing Buleria definately works.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 24 2005 16:35:15

Patrick

Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon

RE: Two's (in reply to Jim Opfer)

Jim,

You're a troublemaker! LOL

Pat

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 24 2005 18:30:35

Guest

RE: Two's (in reply to Jim Opfer)

Watch out Jim.

You've just started a 10+ pages discussion, and you will pay

I must say that I totally agree. This twotapping has changed my bulerías and I relax a lot more (and play) In some falsetas I still have my doubts. You can always count 2, but sometimes its a bit more confusing. The 2 falsetas I uploaded in the playing section are examples of this. Their 6/8 structure isso strong that counting in two's is a bit doing contrarytms with yourself. But in all, counting two, and having the two feeling or groove is very helpfull.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 25 2005 8:05:07

Ricardo

Posts: 14881
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Two's (in reply to Jim Opfer)

Yes, but how many times do you tap two's in one compas?

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 25 2005 15:15:42

Guest

RE: Two's (in reply to Jim Opfer)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 26 2005 17:54:32

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Two's (in reply to Guest)

Ah!
But a lot of students tap 5.9 or 6.1
That's what makes the difference between the good amateur and the pro IMO.

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 26 2005 20:01:50

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Two's (in reply to Ron.M)

That's an excellent point, BonnyRon. You know I uploaded some licks with a metronome a few weeks ago, and Todd really laid into it. He noted that what I was playing (sixteenth notes to a metrome settting of 160 or so) didn't match up to the clicks. I think he said I started fine, slowed down, then kind of "caught up" at the end.

Probably a lot people do this with bulerias too!

Lately I have been practicing with the metronome a lot, really concentrating. It is fabulous exercise. I think the reason it works so much is that you are training your "mechanism" to do what you tell it. If you pay attention to the clicks and really make sure the notes match up with the clicks, then you "calibrate" your mechanism. Otherwise, there is a tendency to just sort of let the hands do what they want. The hands must be controlled.

It is a similiar concept to hearing the notes in your head before/while you play them.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 26 2005 23:03:02

Guest

RE: Two's (in reply to Ron.M)

Good point Ron.

Lets just say between 5.8 and 6.2 is about right

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 27 2005 7:37:45

Ricardo

Posts: 14881
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Two's (in reply to Guest)

quote:

In some falsetas I still have my doubts. You can always count 2, but sometimes its a bit more confusing. The 2 falsetas I uploaded in the playing section are examples of this. Their 6/8 structure isso strong that counting in two's is a bit doing contrarytms with yourself.

Yup, but I think feeling that kind of synchopation helps lock in to a more solid groove. I find a lot of students who play 6/8 and feel it that way, tend to speed up. But if you play the 6/8 phrase against the 3/4 feel ("two tapping"), your first reaction is to slow down a bit and lock in. The real important thing to understand is the subdivision, and where the accents in the phrase land in relation to the beat, or your foot. It is usually 16th notes in 3/4 or 6/8 for bulerias. I like to think of my foot tap as a quater note (if I must "think" about it at all), or a dotted quarter.

6 foot taps=6 "beats" for me, in one 12-count compas of Bulerias. (The "counts" are the eighth notes). But of those 6 beats, the 4th one is just as strong as the 1st. That means the fundamental units are 1,2,3, 1,2,3, or two half-compases. That is why I call "two tapping", tapping in 3/4. A lot of students get stuck w/ the feeling of only one down beat of the 6 in a compas, and have a tough time w/ the half compas feeling in bulerias. There are two down beats in a 12-count compas.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 29 2005 8:02:51

Guest

RE: Two's (in reply to Jim Opfer)

quote:

Yup, but I think feeling that kind of synchopation helps lock in to a more solid groove.

I do agree, and I make some execises for this. I program my flamenco master metronome to do what you said a mont ago: -xxXxx-xxXxx to this I play 'normal' compás XxxXxxXxXxXx while I do two tapping XxXxXxXxXxXx. Its a bit mental, but when its there, it gives me a very nice groove, which maybe one day I will call solid

I must admit that I do get a little bit tired after a while.

Another thing is that I do find it difficult to get your 3/4 feeling. If I understand everything right, you get two times 3/4 in one compás?????? X-x-x-X-x-x-
In falsetas like the ones I posted most people tend to count XxxXxxXxxXxx, which is what I call 3/4, but with 4 times 3/4 in one compás.

I'm still on the confused state when it comes to this, and do make errors.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 29 2005 8:26:24

Ricardo

Posts: 14881
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Two's (in reply to Jim Opfer)

quote:

In falsetas like the ones I posted most people tend to count XxxXxxXxxXxx, which is what I call 3/4, but with 4 times 3/4 in one compás.

Yeah, but I could swear you earlier described it as a 6/8 feeling, which is the way I think of your "X's" pattern. Two bars of 6/8. XxxXxx XxxXxx. The x's are eighth notes. If it was 4 bars of fast 3/4 then each big X would have the same strength, but that is not the feeling in bulerias. One of the big X's is stronger than the other one. That is the down beat. So there are two beats in a bar divided by 6 eighth notes (1&ah,2&ah). That is 6/8. Now, keeping the eighth's the same speed, divide them in twos (two tapping). XxXxXxXxXxXx. That does not go to infinity, each big X as strong as another, either. They are grouped in 3's:
XxXxXx XxXxXx. That is two bars of 3/4, the first of each being a down beat. 1&2&3&, 1&2&3&. That is how I get 3/4. Palmas are &2&3&, emphasis on the "&'s". Like I said, I like to think of my foot as being a quarter note (the numbers). I don't tap my foot to all those x's, just the big ones. Get it? 6/8=3/4 mathematically, but the feeling is different. They are interchangeable.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 29 2005 19:09:15

Guest

RE: Two's (in reply to Jim Opfer)

Hi Ricardo

I do follow you, and I did follow you back when you and Estela were talking two´s. To be honest, my brain understands, I was taught counting and stuff. My body needs more time, and especially playing. But thats normal.
I was tought this fast balkan/northern african rythm: XxxXxxXx (usec in flamenco as well, but slower) some 20 - 25 years ago, and now its just part of my life. You can wake me up at 3 in the night and tell me to play this rythm, and I will without problems. Bulerías is more difficult and it will need time to get out of my brain and into stupid old body. But that day will come. I'm so stubborn.

Thanks for your patience. Its much appreciated

Un saludo
Anders

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 30 2005 8:10:41

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: Two's (in reply to Guest)

quote:

You can wake me up at 3 in the night and tell me to play this rythm, and I will without problems.

Every single day I'm with flamenco...nearly forty years now...and not one day passes that I don't feel the compás is just a bit more internalized. The process is never complete.

_____________________________

Estela Zatania
www.deflamenco.com
www.expoflamenco.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 30 2005 11:14:24

Guest

RE: Two's (in reply to Jim Opfer)

Hi Estela

Welcome to the new bulerías compas thread.

You write:
<and not one day passes that I don't feel the compás is just a bit more internalized. The process is never complete. >

Its a bit like living, aint it?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 30 2005 18:55:14

Guest

RE: Two's (in reply to Ricardo)

Ricardo

Your two tapping in 3/4 means that I can program the metronome to do 3/4 at a speed of 100 with the 1 being accented and the 2 and 3 not being accented. Then the metronome would do bulerías two tapping in 3/4. Right?

A nice soleá feeling as well.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 30 2005 19:02:35

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Two's (in reply to Guest)

Anders,
I'm interested right now in a Bulerias that's almost entierly in 3's. (3/4)
You can still tap 2's to it, but it doesn't feel right.
That doesn't mean 2's are wrong.
It just means I'm not at ease with that.
As I've said before, I sure a lot of Flamencos could hear Bulerias in a dripping tap.

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 30 2005 20:23:27

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: Two's (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

I'm interested right now in a Bulerias that's almost entierly in 3's. (3/4)
You can still tap 2's to it, but it doesn't feel right.
That doesn't mean 2's are wrong.
It just means I'm not at ease with that.

Ron, Morón style bulerías contains lots of falsetas in threes and it's a town where twos are most heavily felt. A good framework to bridge threes and twos is the classic

one-TWO (three) FOUR-five (six)

...which contains 3s and 2s in nearly equal strength.

_____________________________

Estela Zatania
www.deflamenco.com
www.expoflamenco.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 30 2005 20:35:37

Ricardo

Posts: 14881
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Two's (in reply to Jim Opfer)

quote:

Ricardo

Your two tapping in 3/4 means that I can program the metronome to do 3/4 at a speed of 100 with the 1 being accented and the 2 and 3 not being accented. Then the metronome would do bulerías two tapping in 3/4. Right?

A nice soleá feeling as well.

You have got it man. I like 115-120bpm for a natural speed, a little bit more lively, depending.
And your XxxXxxXx=toma que toma que toma, toma que toma que toma. Universal.

quote:

Ron, Morón style bulerías contains lots of falsetas in threes and it's a town where twos are most heavily felt. A good framework to bridge threes and twos is the classic

one-TWO (three) FOUR-five (six)

...which contains 3s and 2s in nearly equal strength.

Yep. Or as I would say, or feel it: (1)&2 3&, (1)&2 3&. I don't have to BOLD anything, the numbers are understood as being stronger. That is my 3/4.

Ricardo

Ron,
Here is the fundamental polyrhythm in compound meter, 2 against 3: (1) 2(&) 3. repeat. The "1" is common to both, but the "&" of 2 creates the synchopation. 1,2,3 against/with the stuff in (). It occurs at all speeds and subdivisions. Feel it man, always.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 30 2005 23:20:57