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gerundino63

Posts: 1746
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

Looking for a reasonable priced high...

Hi All!

I am reading the book from Don E Pohren, - The Art of flamenco -
Dated 1962

If you ever bought a too expensive guitar, just save it, you become rich!

here I quoted the book, but sit down first, you will not believe what you see!:

Quote:
NEW GUITARS
If you are interested in a new flamenco guitar, the best risks at the present time are:

Sobrinos de Estoso, Gravina 7, Madrid - The Sobrinos are presently considered the best constructors of flamenco guitars. They have a maximum yearly output of 50 guitars. Price: about $ 150.

Arcángel Fernández, Jesús de Maria 26, Madrid - Price: about $ 125.

Miguel Rodriguez, Alfaros 15, Córdoba - Price: about $ 125.

José Ramirez, Concepción Jerónima 2, Madrid - Allthough basically a classical guitarrero, Don José occasionally turns out first rate flamenco guitars. Figure on a long wait. Price: about $ 150.

Manuel Reyes, Don Rodrigo 17, Córdoba - Price: about $ 100.

End of the quote.

Times have changed a lot since than........

Peter

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 26 2005 19:47:41

Guest

RE: Looking for a reasonable priced ... (in reply to gerundino63)

quote:

Times have changed a lot since than........

I agree. I was born in 1962, and I've changed a lot during the years

I still think that guitars a relatively a whole lot cheaper nowadays. 150$ was A LOT OF MONEY in Francos 1962 Spain.

I still find Conde prices far out, but in general, good quality guitars are very cheap, or to be honest, way to cheap. Take a look on prices of more or less all other acoustic instruments. Violins, Cellos, trompets, saxophones. You can get many high level guitars for the price of one of these instruments.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 27 2005 7:45:11

gerundino63

Posts: 1746
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Looking for a reasonable priced ... (in reply to Guest)

Hi Anders.

Handcrafted work is allways a lot of time to make one product.

I make sculptures, allways more than 100 hours work, so it is difficult to get a good price for it.

Last week I got a little tears in my eyes.

Pedregosa, one of the promising guitarbulders ( with the carved headstock)
Has stopped building guitars, and is working now as a tile setter ( I mean somebody to put tiles in your bathroom), with his father in law.....

Peter.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 27 2005 8:38:34

Jeff H

Posts: 39
Joined: Jan. 21 2004

RE: Looking for a reasonable priced ... (in reply to gerundino63)

Pedregosa is building again

See Zavaletas guitar site..

My '61 Ramirez blanca with pegs (contreras) was originally sold for $400 including high quality case, shipping, and customs. This was about 3-4 four weeks average wages... try buying a Ramirez Blanca now for 3-4 weeks
average wages . Guitars were cheap then, not so any more...
between greed ( usually the dealers and importers) and the euro, guitars are more now than the relative cost "way back when".

jjh

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 28 2005 4:12:26

Guest

RE: Looking for a reasonable priced ... (in reply to gerundino63)

Jeff.

IMO, you turn things the upside down. 400$ was NOT the average salery in 1961. Maybe in the US, but in Spain, no way and far from!!!!!! It would have been month or even half a years wage. You see prices have to reflect the builders economical situation, if not, he'll die. If you see it this way, I still put my head on the block and say that guitars are still very cheap, if not cheaper than before.

Another thing is that you compare a new with an old, collector item. Thats impossible to..................................

Anders

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 28 2005 8:16:52

gerundino63

Posts: 1746
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Looking for a reasonable priced ... (in reply to Guest)

Hi Anders and Jeff!

This is more complicated than I thought. ( remember, i put it on for a little fun, not to prove something)

There is more in the old book.

The average price of a handmade guitar was about 125 dollar ( see above)
Also there is a price ment of an American builder in the states.
Los Angeles, Manuel Rodriguez, price: between 300 and 400 dollar.

So perhaps it is save to say, that a guitar costs 4 times more in the States than in Spain
( in 1962!)

The price of the book s also ment, 195 pesetas in Spain, Outside Spain 4.50 dollar.

Ofcourse times has chainged, I remember from my yought, 1 dollar was 3.75 guilder

Now, with the euro it would be: 1 dollar = 1.67 guilder.

Perhaps it is save to say, that in that time people in the States, earned 4 times more than people in Spain it the 60ths, and the things in Spain, like food, houses, where also 4 times cheaper.

Anybody knows what a bread costs in Spain in 1962??
than we can figure out how many breads cost a guitar than, and how many breads a guitar costs now................

Peter

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 28 2005 9:50:52

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Looking for a reasonable priced ... (in reply to Guest)

Anders,
price has to reflect the market, not the builder's economic situation. What he builds and whether he is a builder is his side of the bargain. Do you catch my drift? As a pro musician, my price is mostly a function of the market--what other musicians and agencies are charging, what people can afford to pay. Whether I can continue to be a musician, or I have to become an office jockey or waiter is my part of the calculus.

If the average luthier guitar in the US, for example, is $5000, and you sell yours for $10,000, you are going to starve, and probably more so if you charge $15,000.

Now, we have a situation here in the US that a good guitar, say $5000, costs the same as a well used car! I wonder if this has been the case? When I was starting out, it was my perception that a $2000 guitar was fairly top of the line (1990 or so). I don't know if this is true or just how I remember it. But when I go to guitar center, I see Cordobas and other terrible guitars going for that or more.

It's hard for me to compare these things. One thing I wonder, has the adoption of the Euro and the fall in the dollar hurt Spanish luthiers? Or do enough Japanese/non American collectors buy guitars to keep them busy?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 28 2005 15:23:20

Escribano

Posts: 6417
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Looking for a reasonable priced ... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

price has to reflect the market, not the builder's economic situation

Miguel, I beg to quibble

I suspect that the handmade guitar is a fairly inelastic good (in economic terms) so price is less sensitive to demand and supply.

Price is sensitive to:
1. Fixed costs e.g. tools, workshop rent etc.
2. Variable costs e.g. materials, external labour, power, heating, foreign exchange rates etc.
3. Maximum price is determined by the degree of substitutability i.e. more substitution = equivalent, cheaper options. Less substitution = the luxury status of a specific guitar maker.
4. Profit that is taken out by the maker.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 28 2005 15:44:15