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For those struggling with pima arpeggios   You are logged in as Guest
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Kubase

Posts: 72
Joined: May 20 2009
 

For those struggling with pima arpeggios 

Like many others, my pima and pimami arpeggios have been letting me down for some time, lagging behind the other tchniques by quite a margin. It's very irritating, as pami comes very naturally to me and I could play it loud and fast almost immediately. I have done a lot of reading up about planting, sequential planting, wave movements, individual movements, relaxation etc. and have finally hit on a learning method that, for me at least, is working wonders.

I'm not claming to have invented this (although I've not read about it anywhere) but will share it here in the hope it can help others accomplish a fast, loud and even pima and pimami arepggio. I'll list the two well known practice methods that lead me to my "revelation" first.

By the way, I practice with the top four notes of an open E chord - playing the D string with the thumb is harder than the E and A strings in my opinion, as there is less space between the fingers and so positional accuracy, and therefore learning speed, is hopefully increased:

------------0----------------0-------------------------0----------------0------------
---------0----------------0-------------------------0----0-----------0----0---------
-----1----------------1--------------------------1----------1-----1----------1------
-2--------------- 2---------------etc.-------2-----------------2-----------------etc.

1) Planting.

This is the first technique I learned. The p, i, m and a are placed on the strings (like when playing a block chord) before any notes are played, and sort of rolled off in sequence. A very fast apreggio can be achieved quickly with this technique, however as the notes aren't allowed to ring for the full duration - they are cut off after a is played - it has it's own sound which can work sometimes but not, in my opinion at least, all the time. However, it is a useful method for training the postioning of the fingers.

2) Sequential Planting.

With this method, each finger is placed on the corresponding string momentarily before it is played. So, p rests on the D string, then plays it, then i rests on the G string, then plays it, and so on. I found this tehnique very useful, as it trained the right hand without compromising the sound of the arpeggio.

3) Rolling Planting (can't think of a better name )

This is the method I came up with. It feels awkward as hell to start off with but in my case it worked extremely well. I imagine it will be as hard to explain as it is to play, but here goes. The idea is that before anything is played the right hand is in position but not touching any strings. Then, at the same moment p plays, i rests on the G string. Then, when i plays, m rests on the B string. And so on. It can be broken down into two simultaneous movements, which is why I think it trains the hand so well. As one finger plays it's note, the next lands on it's string ready for the next note.

Anyway, give it a try if you struggle with pima!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 26 2009 4:02:53
 
Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: For those struggling with pima a... (in reply to Kubase

Hi Kubase,

Thanks for taking the trouble to post that. My pimami is not as fast as it needs to be, and one teacher taught me your "rolling planting" method, and I believe it is in Pumping Nylon as well, though I haven't read it myself.

The trouble was I could hear when the next finger came to it's resting position so I abandoned it after a while, but I think I might try it again, because I haven't found another solution.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 26 2009 8:14:48
 
Kubase

Posts: 72
Joined: May 20 2009
 

RE: For those struggling with pima a... (in reply to Kubase

Hi Ailsa.

I use this method purely for hand training; I don't intend for it to be my final arpeggio technique. What I do is the rolling planting thing in a very slow, controlled fashion, focussing on tone production and consistency. I then find that when I play pima or pimami "normally" (for me, that is all free strokes) I find it a lot easier. The strokes are smoother and my hand adopts a more compact shape, with each finger being closer to the relevant string. I think it's a muscle memory thing.

Anyway, I hope you have some success with it, let me know how it goes.

:)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 26 2009 9:19:58
 
Exitao

Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada

RE: For those struggling with pima a... (in reply to Kubase

That is precisely the method my teacher uses.

Kind of like the i chambers the m and the m chambers the a.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 26 2009 19:09:30
 
rogeliocan

 

Posts: 811
Joined: Nov. 23 2009
 

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jan. 24 2012 17:00:20
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 14 2010 17:01:29
 
Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005
 

RE: For those struggling with pima a... (in reply to Kubase

Hey rogeliocan!

Well.. decades ago my classics teacher told me the same to plant ami first and then roll up. I learned it this way but I always had problems with evenness.

Wehn I discovered flamenco where you get teached to find your own natural way to get certain techniques down, I worked my arpegios out differently. Now I plant each finger individually right before I hit the string. In any arpegio. And now I have it even.
If you play staccato arpegio a m i downwards. You cant plant your fingers at once because the planted fingers would block the strings.. I would go right from the beginning without planting all 3 fingers. The only finger I always try to rest for almost all techniques to have a better coordination is the thumb.

Look Tennant at 5.24 Sounds not really even.

Try both for some time and then decide yourself. Don´t let anybody tell you "the one right way" It doesn´t exist.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 14 2010 20:53:45
 
rogeliocan

 

Posts: 811
Joined: Nov. 23 2009
 

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jan. 24 2012 17:00:02
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 17 2010 17:43:32
 
orsonw

Posts: 1942
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: For those struggling with pima a... (in reply to Doitsujin

I have also found planting each finger individually works best for me. (Don't forget the thumb also needs to pre-planted.)

First I tried planting the next finger before playing the preceding one but I found this created tension in my hand, obvious really. I also found to strike and plant the next finger simultaneously creates tension too.
A teacher suggested imagining the striking finger sort of 'kicking' the next one into it's rest/plant position. This works best for me to plant just after the preceeding strike.

Arppegio is also the hardest thing for me. Since learning this individual plant method over the past year things are improving. With practice it is improving all the time. It's taken me 9 years of flamenco to get to the point where it's becoming satisfactory. Arppegio always felt weak accompanying dancers now it's beginning to feel powerful and solid.

Don't give up after 2 months. Flamenco is the long road. As Ramon Jimenez says "The guitar is very tough and unrewarding. It takes so much and gives nothing in return."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 17 2010 18:31:53
 
rogeliocan

 

Posts: 811
Joined: Nov. 23 2009
 

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jan. 24 2012 17:00:32
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 17 2010 19:24:42
 
orsonw

Posts: 1942
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: For those struggling with pima a... (in reply to rogeliocan

quote:

10 years!!


Yes but it hasn't been ten years of frustration, I just keep setting higher standards.

Flamenco gives great value to my life and only occasionally frustration, I wouldn't be without it.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 18 2010 0:31:43
 
NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
 

RE: For those struggling with pima a... (in reply to orsonw

quote:

As Ramon Jimenez says "The guitar is very tough and unrewarding. It takes so much and gives nothing in return."


It probably sounds like I'm being vain or irritated (not the case), but I'm the one who said that when I translated his interview in 2003. I don't know when or why FlamencoWorld decided not to credit my work.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 18 2010 10:13:36
 
orsonw

Posts: 1942
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: For those struggling with pima a... (in reply to NormanKliman

As Norman Kliman says "The guitar is very tough and unrewarding. It takes so much and gives nothing in return."

Thanks for all your effort and sharing of your knowledge Norman, I'm impressed by your generosity, I gain alot from it.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 18 2010 10:21:46
 
NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
 

RE: For those struggling with pima a... (in reply to orsonw

Thanks Orson but you didn't have to do that. I'm sorry if I gave you the impression that I was bothered. Ramón deserves all the credit for saying that.

Just to avoid derailing the thread, let me try to bring things back on topic. The Tennant video, IMO, shows why it's important to be careful about automatically raising your fingers in picado (different technique but similar concept). Not that it's a bad idea to raise your fingers, but sometimes it makes things harder.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 18 2010 10:26:01
 
orsonw

Posts: 1942
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: For those struggling with pima a... (in reply to NormanKliman

Now I'm confused, did Ramon actually say it or just imply it?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 18 2010 10:27:19
 
NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
 

RE: For those struggling with pima a... (in reply to orsonw

Here are excerpts, taken from my files, from the job that I did in 2003. I don't know if it's exactly the same as what FlamencoWorld has on their site at present.

"La guitarra es muy jodida, muy ingrata. Te pide mucho y no te da nada".

"The guitar is very tough and unrewarding. It takes so much and gives nothing in return."

It's not a literal translation but it's close enough.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 18 2010 10:34:49
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: For those struggling with pima a... (in reply to orsonw

quote:

ORIGINAL: orsonw
Flamenco gives great value to my life and only occasionally frustration, I wouldn't be without it.


wow thats heavy! For me it was never about flamenco i think. I just wanted to make music that inspires me, and it happened to be flamenco. I see the kind of flamenco i do completely as art (well at best of course), because i know i dont have enough flamenco around me to call it culture or even part of my life. And although im interested in learning to accompany i dont think i will ever become really good at it. Partly because i prefer solo guitar playing, but partly also because you need to have good things to accompany to become good at accompanying.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 18 2010 11:37:32
 
Stu

Posts: 2554
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: For those struggling with pima a... (in reply to XXX

quote:

"The guitar is very tough and unrewarding. It takes so much and gives nothing in return."


I understand what this means but I disagree!!
Its definately tough!!
but its given me plenty since I began playing and it keeps on giving. thats why I continue to study it. learning a new piece, improving a technique playing for a dancer or just jamming. for sure its an inanimate object so gives nothing without someone playing it.

and what makes the guitar different from other instruments in this respect?? surely, if true, this could be said about all instruments?
........... but maybe in twenty years ill understand this more.... who knows?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 20 2010 0:31:15
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