Young Scottish flamenco guitarist

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Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

Young Scottish flamenco guitarist

I want to introduce you to Andrew Robinson, a young graduate of the Royal Scottish Academy of Music and Drama.
Andy's a classical guitarist who has been interested in flamenco guitar for just over one year. Andy came to me to get started and after a few sessions he turned up one day to show me some Nunez he'd picked up from listening to the CD

.
Since then he's just taken off and now composes and plays flamenco pieces in his classical concerts.
Andy bought a Stephen Hill negra to play as a cross over guitar and you can hear him play on this link

www.spanishguitars.co.uk/pages/players.html

I hope this takes you there and would be interested to hear your thoughts. Remember, one year.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2006 15:26:36

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Young Scottish flamenco guitarist (in reply to Jim Opfer)

Ah! Jim,
So this is the guy you were telling me about a while back.
He's certainly got the fingers and the ear for this stuff!
Do you think he's hooked now? LOL!
(Think of all the future agony and frustration you've started now with those few lessons...you should be ashamed of yourself

)

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2006 16:13:42

Mark2

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Young Scottish flamenco guitarist (in reply to Jim Opfer)

Well it's the ole good news vs. bad news. The good news is that the guy has all the tools to be an excellent flamenco player-good technique, musicality, sensitivity, creative, good ear, and time on his side. The bad news is he's missing the most important element-compas. No groove or swing whatsoever. Two-three years in a dance school playing for classes and this guy may be great. Skip that step and who knows. If he's going to compose and perform at this stage he might want to stick to the libre forms. Full of promise, but he needs to get with people who demand compas.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2006 21:28:40

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Young Scottish flamenco guitarist (in reply to Mark2)

Hi Mark,

I think you posted a very true and honest critique of his playing, although it really is quite astounding to get to that level of general feel for the stuff after only a year.

But in real terms, I agree that it's really still just a "imitation" of Flamenco "as she is spoke"...(ie..ordinary Andalucian Flamencos would not understand this phrasing or rhythm).

But are real flamencos going to be listening to it?

I would doubt it!....Not in an International context.

So I'm sure that many Audiences will be thrilled by Andy's performance, which certainly conveys the "spirit" of Bulerias even though it is not.

So, my question is.... is this the point where Flamenco now gets taken out of the hands of the Andalucians and made more "manageable" by the wider community?

There is a lot of interest amongst very good guitarists around the world now in this music.

IMO, the thing that bugs them most is compás and just the general NEED for it....

Too complicated and takes up too much time trying to understand and is really unneccessary, when you could have the freedom to do your own thing.

Maybe we are at a point where Flamenco will evolve into more "western" 3/4, 4/4 type timings but with the same kind of "Flamenco" expression and technique?

Two kinds of Flamenco..in effect..

Just a thought here...

cheers

Ron

PS: Ricardo...I'd like to hear your thoughts on this...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2006 20:42:11

Mark2

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Young Scottish flamenco guitarist (in reply to Jim Opfer)

Well, I was a little harsh. I didn't learn compas in the first year, and my hands and ear were not nearly as facile either. But to address your question, I think it's already happened with rumba, with guys like ottmar, jesse cook,etc. Professional musicians having success with music that is flamenco influenced, but not flamenco. But as far as core flamenco music such as buleria, solea, etc, it will never be accepted by anyone who is able to distinguish the compas without it. And flamenco will never be "taken" out of the hands of Spanish performers in any meaningful way, imo. When spanish flamencos visit the local flamenco community, the local dance teachers often give up their studio space, workshops and lessons are arranged, performances are well attended, people put the artists up, entertain, party, and smooze with them and each other. They acknowledge the real keepers of the flame, the source. And for these authentic performers, compas is at the root of their expression. Many non Spanish guitarists spend years studying flamenco without getting an opportunity to see where the compas fits in the whole scheme of flamenco expression/performance. It would be a shame and a waste if a young guitarist with the talent and passion of that fellow didn't have that opportunity.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2006 23:15:20

Ricardo

Posts: 14845
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Young Scottish flamenco guitarist (in reply to Jim Opfer)

Well I listened, and I disagree with some of the stuff said. I think the guy does have rhythm and is playing in compas. His sound is suffering because of his technique, the way he is strumming and attacking the strings. I can almost see what he is doing, because I have heard that sound so many times. He is a classical player, and it might hurt him overall to change the way he plays to a more aggressive flamenco sound.

But his only rhythmic error is that he is rushing overall, and playing too fast to do it all clean. He is running too much, even faster than Nunez. But he is doing it because he IS staying in compas. He does not rush AND drag, adding beats, etc, just pushing the tempo a little, steadily. Sabicas used to do the same. His playing demonstrates to me he knows how the music fits in compas. But if he played slower with palmas, it would sound better. I think he could do it, no need for dance class, at least with what I just heard him play. But I liked it regardless.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 20 2006 9:35:58

ivan

Posts: 73
Joined: Oct. 6 2005

RE: Young Scottish flamenco guitarist (in reply to Mark2)

Ron,

quote:

Too complicated and takes up too much time trying to understand and is really unneccessary, when you could have the freedom to do your own thing.

"Maybe we are at a point where Flamenco will evolve into more "western" 3/4, 4/4 type timings but with the same kind of "Flamenco" expression and technique

in my opinion, this is a scary thought. Spaniards do not care that other foreigners play flamenco as long as it is flamenco. If others start doing their own thing, then it will sound flamenco "like" and just sound like gypsy kings and even worse, otmar liebert(sp?) and other wanna be's...esteban.etc.. Flamenco has already evolved into more western modalities. for example the jazzier flamenco of PDL and VA, etc..but in my opinion, you can never change the compas. I agree, flamenco is very difficult to learn. but the only way is to listen, listen and practice and get it part of your nervous system. but to make up some new form of flamenco because someone cannot get flamenco compas, is just not comprehensible to us, especially in Andalucia. there has been great advice on this forum about compas. the best way to really understand it is not to count but to play for flamenco classes. Just my humble opinion,

Ivan Gomez

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 20 2006 14:07:44

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Young Scottish flamenco guitarist (in reply to Jim Opfer)

It seems funny to me, but when people around here talk about compas, it seems they only mean bulerias? I mean, tangos is a very important part of flamenco, and it is in 4/4 too. So is tientos and rumba. Fandangos and others are in 3/4. There are other aspects to flamenco than 12 beat compases. And I think compas means the "rhythm", not "the rhythm of bulerias."

Lots of people play music that is inspired by flamenco but is not flamenco. So what? Lots of people play music that is inspired by blues but is not blues--it's called rock. Lots of people play music inspired by jazz but is not--called smooth jazz. Who was it, Kenny G, who said, "Hey, I didn't kill anyone."

The more I think about it, the sillier it is someone in his room banging out a solea from a Sabicas tab thinking he is somehow a more authentic musician than someone playing Florian's Novamenco, or smooth jazz, or rock. Give me a break! If you can accompany a dancer in a juerga, or play for a cantaor, then look down your nose all you can. Music is about execution and feel, being true to the nuances. If you have to sit there and talk about learning the 12 beat compases as if it somehow makes you a musician, then I'm not impressed. How does it sound, that's what matters.

To me, this situation is analagous. Some guy from Belgium (or whatever) gets interested in American blues, and he gets a bunch of Muddy Waters and Howling Wolf records and learns them note for note. He works on it real hard and even learns quite a bit of English just so he can sing it better. He then looks down on and talks disparagingly about people who play blues-inflected rock such as Blues Traveler. Or, say the Rolling Stones.

But the blues is a cultural phenomenon. To find someone who was not born and raised in the Delta and can sing and play the blues is a rarity, let alone someone who is white or is from another country. The same with flamenco--as Ricardo said, you can't separate one note from its cultural context. I say, unless you are totally immersed in flamenco, live and breathe it, don't go around disparaging guys like the Gipsy Kings or the American "nouveau flamenco" guys. It's just like some Belgium Howling Wolf wanna be who sings Delta blues with a funny accent making fun of rockers!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 20 2006 14:29:21

ivan

Posts: 73
Joined: Oct. 6 2005

RE: Young Scottish flamenco guitarist (in reply to Jim Opfer)

Miguel,

I totally agree w/ you. but as long as someone does not play non-flamenco music and claim that is flamenco. they can say it is based on flamenco ideas, harmonizations, etc..but to me, there is nothing more annoying than hearing some guitar player that does not know or undestand flamenco and say to people, I am a flamenco guitar player simply because he knows the beginning of Lecuona's malaguena. I am not saying one form is better than another. I would never claim I am a jazz guitarist because I know a couple of jazz progressions. I agree w/ you about the sound. it is all about how you sound. whatever the style is or if it is a mixture of styles. and yes there are many palos that are not in 12 count.
Ivan

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 20 2006 14:55:32

Mark2

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Young Scottish flamenco guitarist (in reply to Jim Opfer)

for the record, I don't consider myself an "authentic" flamenco performer whatsoever-I do consider people like chuscales to be one. Good compas in flamenco above a certain level is not optional, and historically the way it's been ingrained is through playing with people who knew it well. I don't look down at anyone, compas challenged or not. But I was where that young guitarist is, in that I did solo gigs and even large concerts before really developing decent compas. It's`part of the backwoods way flamenco is often learned in the US. I do feel I have an insight into that particular place. And I really feel the player in question would benefit from playing for dance. Also, I have nothing against rumba, or it's less flamenco variations-I've led a band of non flamenco players for 14 years doing music that I hope regular folks like. And due to the quality of the players I've been lucky enough to play with, feel that that music is generally of higher quality than that of the flamenco situations that I personally have been invited to play for. Which has as much to do with my flamenco chops as anything else.
I've been thinkin that my participation on this board has not been that healthy for me lately, and want to wish everyone the greatest joy in their pursuit of flamenco. I want to get my flamenco fix in the real world, to whatever degree I can. thanks and good luck to all of you.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 20 2006 14:58:58

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Young Scottish flamenco guitarist (in reply to Mark2)

quote:

I've been thinkin that my participation on this board has not been that healthy for me lately,

I don't understand, Mark?

Why?

I always enjoy your posts!

cheers

Ron

PS: Anyway this looks like it might be warming up to a puro versus nouveau debate and you'll miss all the fun LOL!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 20 2006 15:49:46

Ricardo

Posts: 14845
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Young Scottish flamenco guitarist (in reply to Mark2)

Mark2, yeah, you have a good point, and in the flamenco world that is the way it is, you cut your teeth with dancers and singers. And yeah, the internet is a tough way to communicate without being taken the wrong way. Since I was the first to disagree with you, let me say sorry, and I hope we keep hearing from you. I almost always agree with everything you say as you seem to be one of the few on here that has experience playing for dance.

The reason I disagree with you regarding this kid compas wise, is maybe because I know the falsetas he is playing and I can easily feel where they are meant to be played. He is doing a good job from my perspective, just going too fast and gradually speeding it up. Yeah that is a mistake, and yeah accomp dance class would help him more with flamenco overall, but I have seen many dance students and even "teachers" with more problems of rushing and dragging than this kid. I don't think that accomp. dance will help his TONE. He sounds classical. If someone had Ron's tone already, but was all over the place timing wise, I would suggest metronome and dance class. But this kid needs to correct his technique first, or decide what he is going to do, classical or flamenco. Or just keep to what he is doing and not worry so much. For me, dance class is something you gravitate to when you want to go deeper into flamenco than just "compas" and technique, and a few falsetas. It is for when you want to understand what flamenco is ABOUT, the structure, purpose, feeling, etc.

Hope there are no hard feelings, Mark2.

And Miguel, why would you think "compas" as refered to is only in regards to bulerias? In this thread in particular, the kid played bulerias. Maybe that is why? No one has said compas is the rhythm of bulerias, that I noticed anyway.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2006 15:11:55

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: Young Scottish flamenco guitarist (in reply to Jim Opfer)

Hi everyone,

I posted this link just to let you hear what this young fella is doing and in such a short time.
Andy is very aware of Compas and his Buleria is composed 'in Compas' but he's still playing with a classical technique that interestingly, he's keen to 'develop' into a flamenco one. I told him it might ruin his classical playing, but he doesn't see it that way and recons that all learning on the guitar is for the good.
He's got all the attributes and with years on his side.
The really interesting thing is that he loves flamenco guitar and is able to present it to a classical audience who seem largely, not to know anything about flamenco.

Jim.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2006 15:37:02

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Young Scottish flamenco guitarist (in reply to Jim Opfer)

Hi Jim,
I think he sounded good...quite amazing actually!
The only problem I had was that I had difficulty with the rhythm.
It kind of jarred me.
Not that I was counting from 1 to 12 or anything.
It was just very fast and confusing...
A bit "frantic"
I appreciate Ricardo's point that he already knew those falsetas and adjusted to how they would fit in.
But it was still out in any sense of the term...ie there was no confident association with the rhythm, other than "learned" phrasing of passages played slowly, then at full speed and even faster.

This is a tough Forum, Jim!

I still think he's got incredible possibilities though..if he continues with it.

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2006 20:17:19

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Young Scottish flamenco guitarist (in reply to Jim Opfer)

Ricardo,
the reason I was talking about bulerias is that it seems to me that a lot of people think bulerias compas = compas, ie, there is no other type of rhythmic foundations in flamenco than the 12 count one. Of course, I know that you are in expert in such matters and the comment wasn't meant to be directed to you.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2006 20:36:08

Ricardo

Posts: 14845
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Young Scottish flamenco guitarist (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

I appreciate Ricardo's point that he already knew those falsetas and adjusted to how they would fit in.
But it was still out in any sense of the term...ie there was no confident association with the rhythm, other than "learned" phrasing of passages played slowly, then at full speed and even faster.

My point I was trying to make was that he was NOT out. He rushed here and there, but I can tell he feels it, he understands the compas. He does not feel each note perfect, and is going a little too fast to be clean, but I did not "adjust" to understand where he was. I think if he had played with palmas it would end the "confusion" regarding his compas.

Miguel, I know you did not mean me, but maybe bulerias is a good example when discussing compas because it has so many different elements that characterize what makes flamenco rhythm so DIFFERENT from the rhythm of other music. Just an idea.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2006 22:05:34

seanm

Posts: 169
Joined: Apr. 5 2005
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia

RE: Young Scottish flamenco guitarist (in reply to Jim Opfer)

Listening to Andrew gave a serious flashback to about 5 years ago. I was trained as a classical guitarist (BMus and ~10 years of professional playing). When I began playing flamenco I had a ton of technique that could be immediately applied and learned much of the paco pena toques book within a few months. However, I just didn't sound flamenco or at all like the recording. I think this is where Andrew is at and that is why the pulse of the compas is not there and the thumb, scales, arrpegios and rasquedos all sound classical. I stepped back from my classical technique and took each of these elements and learned them 'the flamenco way' ... to achive that gusty sound and feel. This totally changed my playing and feel for the music and no :) .. it didn't ruin my clasical technique but rather strengthened my right hand beyond anything I ever had as a classical player. My two cents.

Sean

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 22 2006 14:13:02

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Young Scottish flamenco guitarist (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

My point I was trying to make was that he was NOT out. He rushed here and there

So let me get this straight Ricardo...

Adding or missing notes or beats in the cycle so it goes out of step with a compás loop = not in compás.

Prolonging or speeding notes or beats in the cycle so it goes out of step with a compás loop = in compás, but only dragging or rushing.

Uh..yeah, OK man...

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 22 2006 15:06:08

Ricardo

Posts: 14845
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Young Scottish flamenco guitarist (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

So let me get this straight Ricardo...

Adding or missing notes or beats in the cycle so it goes out of step with a compás loop = not in compás.

Prolonging or speeding notes or beats in the cycle so it goes out of step with a compás loop = in compás, but only dragging or rushing.

Uh..yeah, OK man...

cheers

Ron

There was no "loop" in the posted link and clip. My GUESS is that this kid would not rush so much with a loop or live percussion, that is just the way I hear it. Sabicas used to rush in his guitar solos, but not with Carmen Amaya dancing. It can be a deliberate manipulation of tempo, not a mistake. All I am saying is if we heard the kid with percussion, it would warrent a definative yes or no to if he can play in compas. I don't know this kid and have no personal reason to defend him. I already said he doesn't have the flamenco sound, just calling it the way I hear it. I am not going to say the kid has NO compas just because he doesn't play as even and precise as Gerardo, Paco, Vicente (the falsetas he was playing in the clip). I just personally feel compas is not his weak point, based on the clip I heard.

Peace.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 22 2006 19:02:22

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Young Scottish flamenco guitarist (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Peace.

LOL! Ricardo,
I was only jiving you up the same way as you jive us all up here.

Actually, if you are a teacher, which I know you are, it's your job to be able to hear if someone has basically got it but is perhaps rushing, dragging etc.
I do understand that rushing means leaving your ending just that bit too late and you try to make up for it by speeding up a bit at the end.
It's something most of us experience.

So I'm cool on that....I was just winding you up man!

Think no more about it!

But really, and I'm not saying anything against Andy here....I think he's really done a remarkable job in such a short time...

He's happier I think, with the repeating melodies which have a recurring pattern, but once he hits those bits which sound practically "free"...you can see the big question mark above his head so he just gets his head down and "freewheels", hoping he'll make it till the end, still in time.
This is the danger I've mentioned before about learning the "tune" and relying on it to see you through the rhythm..
In his first instance of that..(and I listened to it a few times to make sure), every time I clapped along, he was short of a count of 3.
Now to me that seemed "out".
But to you it was "in".
So that's why I had to question it.
The only way I can explain it is that you were able (from knowing the falsetas) to do "variable rate" palmas, which I couldn't. (or didn't see why I should have to.)
So therefore it seemed "out" to me, though you insisted that it was in compás.

Generally, to me it was mostly in rhythm (to a degree) but to me it was like watching a guy balancing on a high wire...you know what I mean?
Still, very good for his first attempt at such a complicated piece!

Anyway a bit OT...there is this great advert on UK TV at the moment with a Parking Warden (Policeman), booking this guy for having the front wheels of his car just over double yellow lines.
The guy turns out to be John McEnroe and this argument ensues about whether the car was in or out..
Of course, John takes one of his famous tantrums...LOL!

cheers (and peace)

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 22 2006 20:08:21

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: Young Scottish flamenco guitarist (in reply to Ricardo)

Hi Ricardo and Ron,

Interesting observations.

I should explain that I've been really enthusiastic about Andy (Ron knows this) for some months now. I posted earlier, saying that when I had access to one of his recordings I'd let you know. The SH recordings were the first to emerge and I charged on and brought them to your attention.
As far as the 'notation' of compas is concerned, I mean all the beats being there in a written sense, then Andy's compositions are all in compas i.e. he has worked them out and put them on paper. The recordings on SH site however do go a bit streatchy here and there and I understand Ron questioning Andy's compas control. Ricardo hears Andy being in compas and suggests that if he played with palmas he would be fine.
Interestingly, Andy has played with dancer and palmero both doing contra palmas and the playing sits very well and with a good swing.
Andy needs to alter his technique to be more flamenco and less classical and that is what he is now working on.

Jim.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2006 12:23:32