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Young Scottish flamenco guitarist
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Mark2
Posts: 1891
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
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RE: Young Scottish flamenco guitarist (in reply to Jim Opfer)
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Well, I was a little harsh. I didn't learn compas in the first year, and my hands and ear were not nearly as facile either. But to address your question, I think it's already happened with rumba, with guys like ottmar, jesse cook,etc. Professional musicians having success with music that is flamenco influenced, but not flamenco. But as far as core flamenco music such as buleria, solea, etc, it will never be accepted by anyone who is able to distinguish the compas without it. And flamenco will never be "taken" out of the hands of Spanish performers in any meaningful way, imo. When spanish flamencos visit the local flamenco community, the local dance teachers often give up their studio space, workshops and lessons are arranged, performances are well attended, people put the artists up, entertain, party, and smooze with them and each other. They acknowledge the real keepers of the flame, the source. And for these authentic performers, compas is at the root of their expression. Many non Spanish guitarists spend years studying flamenco without getting an opportunity to see where the compas fits in the whole scheme of flamenco expression/performance. It would be a shame and a waste if a young guitarist with the talent and passion of that fellow didn't have that opportunity.
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Date Feb. 19 2006 23:15:20
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Ricardo
Posts: 14966
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Young Scottish flamenco guitarist (in reply to Jim Opfer)
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Well I listened, and I disagree with some of the stuff said. I think the guy does have rhythm and is playing in compas. His sound is suffering because of his technique, the way he is strumming and attacking the strings. I can almost see what he is doing, because I have heard that sound so many times. He is a classical player, and it might hurt him overall to change the way he plays to a more aggressive flamenco sound. But his only rhythmic error is that he is rushing overall, and playing too fast to do it all clean. He is running too much, even faster than Nunez. But he is doing it because he IS staying in compas. He does not rush AND drag, adding beats, etc, just pushing the tempo a little, steadily. Sabicas used to do the same. His playing demonstrates to me he knows how the music fits in compas. But if he played slower with palmas, it would sound better. I think he could do it, no need for dance class, at least with what I just heard him play. But I liked it regardless. Ricardo
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Date Feb. 20 2006 9:35:58
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ivan
Posts: 73
Joined: Oct. 6 2005
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RE: Young Scottish flamenco guitarist (in reply to Mark2)
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Ron, quote:
Too complicated and takes up too much time trying to understand and is really unneccessary, when you could have the freedom to do your own thing. "Maybe we are at a point where Flamenco will evolve into more "western" 3/4, 4/4 type timings but with the same kind of "Flamenco" expression and technique in my opinion, this is a scary thought. Spaniards do not care that other foreigners play flamenco as long as it is flamenco. If others start doing their own thing, then it will sound flamenco "like" and just sound like gypsy kings and even worse, otmar liebert(sp?) and other wanna be's...esteban.etc.. Flamenco has already evolved into more western modalities. for example the jazzier flamenco of PDL and VA, etc..but in my opinion, you can never change the compas. I agree, flamenco is very difficult to learn. but the only way is to listen, listen and practice and get it part of your nervous system. but to make up some new form of flamenco because someone cannot get flamenco compas, is just not comprehensible to us, especially in Andalucia. there has been great advice on this forum about compas. the best way to really understand it is not to count but to play for flamenco classes. Just my humble opinion, Ivan Gomez
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Date Feb. 20 2006 14:07:44
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: Young Scottish flamenco guitarist (in reply to Jim Opfer)
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It seems funny to me, but when people around here talk about compas, it seems they only mean bulerias? I mean, tangos is a very important part of flamenco, and it is in 4/4 too. So is tientos and rumba. Fandangos and others are in 3/4. There are other aspects to flamenco than 12 beat compases. And I think compas means the "rhythm", not "the rhythm of bulerias." Lots of people play music that is inspired by flamenco but is not flamenco. So what? Lots of people play music that is inspired by blues but is not blues--it's called rock. Lots of people play music inspired by jazz but is not--called smooth jazz. Who was it, Kenny G, who said, "Hey, I didn't kill anyone." The more I think about it, the sillier it is someone in his room banging out a solea from a Sabicas tab thinking he is somehow a more authentic musician than someone playing Florian's Novamenco, or smooth jazz, or rock. Give me a break! If you can accompany a dancer in a juerga, or play for a cantaor, then look down your nose all you can. Music is about execution and feel, being true to the nuances. If you have to sit there and talk about learning the 12 beat compases as if it somehow makes you a musician, then I'm not impressed. How does it sound, that's what matters. To me, this situation is analagous. Some guy from Belgium (or whatever) gets interested in American blues, and he gets a bunch of Muddy Waters and Howling Wolf records and learns them note for note. He works on it real hard and even learns quite a bit of English just so he can sing it better. He then looks down on and talks disparagingly about people who play blues-inflected rock such as Blues Traveler. Or, say the Rolling Stones. But the blues is a cultural phenomenon. To find someone who was not born and raised in the Delta and can sing and play the blues is a rarity, let alone someone who is white or is from another country. The same with flamenco--as Ricardo said, you can't separate one note from its cultural context. I say, unless you are totally immersed in flamenco, live and breathe it, don't go around disparaging guys like the Gipsy Kings or the American "nouveau flamenco" guys. It's just like some Belgium Howling Wolf wanna be who sings Delta blues with a funny accent making fun of rockers!
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Date Feb. 20 2006 14:29:21
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Ricardo
Posts: 14966
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Young Scottish flamenco guitarist (in reply to Mark2)
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Mark2, yeah, you have a good point, and in the flamenco world that is the way it is, you cut your teeth with dancers and singers. And yeah, the internet is a tough way to communicate without being taken the wrong way. Since I was the first to disagree with you, let me say sorry, and I hope we keep hearing from you. I almost always agree with everything you say as you seem to be one of the few on here that has experience playing for dance. The reason I disagree with you regarding this kid compas wise, is maybe because I know the falsetas he is playing and I can easily feel where they are meant to be played. He is doing a good job from my perspective, just going too fast and gradually speeding it up. Yeah that is a mistake, and yeah accomp dance class would help him more with flamenco overall, but I have seen many dance students and even "teachers" with more problems of rushing and dragging than this kid. I don't think that accomp. dance will help his TONE. He sounds classical. If someone had Ron's tone already, but was all over the place timing wise, I would suggest metronome and dance class. But this kid needs to correct his technique first, or decide what he is going to do, classical or flamenco. Or just keep to what he is doing and not worry so much. For me, dance class is something you gravitate to when you want to go deeper into flamenco than just "compas" and technique, and a few falsetas. It is for when you want to understand what flamenco is ABOUT, the structure, purpose, feeling, etc. Hope there are no hard feelings, Mark2. And Miguel, why would you think "compas" as refered to is only in regards to bulerias? In this thread in particular, the kid played bulerias. Maybe that is why? No one has said compas is the rhythm of bulerias, that I noticed anyway. Ricardo
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Date Feb. 21 2006 15:11:55
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Ricardo
Posts: 14966
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Young Scottish flamenco guitarist (in reply to Ron.M)
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quote:
So let me get this straight Ricardo... Adding or missing notes or beats in the cycle so it goes out of step with a compás loop = not in compás. Prolonging or speeding notes or beats in the cycle so it goes out of step with a compás loop = in compás, but only dragging or rushing. Uh..yeah, OK man... cheers Ron There was no "loop" in the posted link and clip. My GUESS is that this kid would not rush so much with a loop or live percussion, that is just the way I hear it. Sabicas used to rush in his guitar solos, but not with Carmen Amaya dancing. It can be a deliberate manipulation of tempo, not a mistake. All I am saying is if we heard the kid with percussion, it would warrent a definative yes or no to if he can play in compas. I don't know this kid and have no personal reason to defend him. I already said he doesn't have the flamenco sound, just calling it the way I hear it. I am not going to say the kid has NO compas just because he doesn't play as even and precise as Gerardo, Paco, Vicente (the falsetas he was playing in the clip). I just personally feel compas is not his weak point, based on the clip I heard. Peace. Ricardo
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Date Feb. 22 2006 19:02:22
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: Young Scottish flamenco guitarist (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
Peace. LOL! Ricardo, I was only jiving you up the same way as you jive us all up here. Actually, if you are a teacher, which I know you are, it's your job to be able to hear if someone has basically got it but is perhaps rushing, dragging etc. I do understand that rushing means leaving your ending just that bit too late and you try to make up for it by speeding up a bit at the end. It's something most of us experience. So I'm cool on that....I was just winding you up man! Think no more about it! But really, and I'm not saying anything against Andy here....I think he's really done a remarkable job in such a short time... He's happier I think, with the repeating melodies which have a recurring pattern, but once he hits those bits which sound practically "free"...you can see the big question mark above his head so he just gets his head down and "freewheels", hoping he'll make it till the end, still in time. This is the danger I've mentioned before about learning the "tune" and relying on it to see you through the rhythm.. In his first instance of that..(and I listened to it a few times to make sure), every time I clapped along, he was short of a count of 3. Now to me that seemed "out". But to you it was "in". So that's why I had to question it. The only way I can explain it is that you were able (from knowing the falsetas) to do "variable rate" palmas, which I couldn't. (or didn't see why I should have to.) So therefore it seemed "out" to me, though you insisted that it was in compás. Generally, to me it was mostly in rhythm (to a degree) but to me it was like watching a guy balancing on a high wire...you know what I mean? Still, very good for his first attempt at such a complicated piece! Anyway a bit OT...there is this great advert on UK TV at the moment with a Parking Warden (Policeman), booking this guy for having the front wheels of his car just over double yellow lines. The guy turns out to be John McEnroe and this argument ensues about whether the car was in or out.. Of course, John takes one of his famous tantrums...LOL! cheers (and peace) Ron
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Date Feb. 22 2006 20:08:21
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