12-beat Polyrhythm

Costs are rising and times are tough.
Please consider a donation to keep this
place going.

Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.

12-beat Polyrhythm

You are logged in as Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >>Discussions >>General >>

Page: [1]

Message

<< Newer Topic Older Topic >>

Skai

Posts: 317
Joined: Sep. 12 2004

12-beat Polyrhythm

I would like to suggest a 'Short Questions' thread for everyone where people can ask questions that require simpler answers and thus do not require a full thread. Maybe someone would just like some quick answers and so a new thread would not be needed.
(So it isn't such a good idea lol)

I'd also like to start off with a question I have:
For the 12-beat cycle, does X x x X x x X x X x X x accent pattern hold throughout the whole piece? I know that syncopation comes into play very often but what about polyrhythm? In all my CDs, the palmas always seem follow the accent patterns, in bulerias for example. So would it be correct if I simply clap and accent my playing according to X x x X x x X x X x X x throughout? Throwing in some syncopation for variety.

Thanks,
Skai

_____________________________

Try some Enrique Iglesias for some great cante.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 31 2004 5:00:08

Escribano

Posts: 6417
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Short Questions thread (in reply to Skai)

quote:

I would like to suggest a 'Short Questions' thread for everyone where people can ask questions that require simpler answers and thus do not require a full thread.

Never happens! Either you get one response or 15

_____________________________

Foro Flamenco founder and Admin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 31 2004 8:28:53

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Short Questions thread (in reply to Skai)

YUP. The feeling does not allways follow the 12-3-6-8-10 way of feeling. Notice that i say FEELING. If you count like that in a Bulerias you´ll never go out of compas. But the feeling can be 12-2-4-6-8-etc or..12--3--6--9--etc.. Hope you understand what im getting at here

Henrik

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 31 2004 12:38:30

Ricardo

Posts: 14845
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Short Questions thread (in reply to Skai)

Playing yes, clapping no. Clapping is percussion and usually rhythmic music prefers to have the percussion accenting up beats against the musical accents. That goes for country, rock, jazz, Rumba, as well as flamenco. So if your music is accenting like this in say bulerias:

XxxXxxXxXxXx the claps should feel more like this:
- XxXxx-XxXxx sometimes landing on a musical accent but always "up beat" feeling. Notice the second half is trading off the accents between music and clapping. That second half can be looked at as the fundamental measure (starting w/ the - or missing clap on the down beat), the first half being more like a poly rhythm like you mentioned. Like we talked about before (bulerias thread), poly rhythm in compound meter can be felt in different ways.

So this fundamental unit (6 counts) is what maintains in bulerias, not the entire 12 accent pattern. You can find odd half compases all over the place in bulerias, and occasional solea guitar solos. But typically the 12 pattern is maintained in the medium tempo forms like Alegria or Solea por Bulerias. (I am talking about guitar here not cante/baile). I say "typically" meaning I have NEVER heard or seen other wise.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 31 2004 20:08:40

Skai

Posts: 317
Joined: Sep. 12 2004

RE: Short Questions thread (in reply to Skai)

So you mean that for playing, the accents are XxxXxxXxXxXx throughout with some syncopation? I've heard some solo guitar recordings accenting XxxXxxXxxXxx followed by XxxXxxXxXxXx together. Sometimes XxXxXxXxXxXx too. Maybe you could explain more on polyrhythm? I don't quite get the concept of how the guitar could accent like that.

Thanks,
Skai

_____________________________

Try some Enrique Iglesias for some great cante.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 2 2005 6:18:38

Ricardo

Posts: 14845
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: 12-beat Polyrhythm (in reply to Skai)

Of course the guitar can move around all over the place w/ synchopation, and the pattern you keep writing is 12 x's long, but in bulerias, you can often have only 6 x's. But the palmas have a different thing to do, and palmas and guitar don't accent the same way.

Poly rhythms happen simultaneously, but what you are describing w/ your x's are different feels happening one after the other. You can represent the change of feel by changing your time signature. If you understood compound meter better (3/4, 6/8, 12/8) you could see how all your different patterns you wrote, are interchangeable in any kind of music.

The first pattern you wrote XxxXxx XxXxXx is two bars long, or 6/8, followed by 3/4. The second you wrote XxxXxx XxxXxx is either two bars of 6/8 or a bar of 12/8. The third pattern you wrote XxXxXx XxXxXx, is two bars of 3/4 or a bar of 6/4. The thing you are probably not understanding is that, bulerias does not have to be 12 x's long. The guitar actually moves through phrases of 6, and they are allowed to be odd, though if there are 2 phrases back to back, it may appear as though it is a 12 beat phrase. Notice how I space the accent patterns into two halves. One half is the fundamental. Poly rhythm occurs if the two halves of different accent patterns happen on top of each other, filling in any gaps or doubling up on accents. Palmas + guitar creates polyrhythm.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 2 2005 20:08:09

Skai

Posts: 317
Joined: Sep. 12 2004

RE: 12-beat Polyrhythm (in reply to Skai)

I've been thinking about these pieces of info all this while. So how is the 12-beat compas clock still relevant if the fundamental unit is a 6-count rhythm? Like how siguiriyas, bulerias or soleares start on different counts of the clock.

Secondly, does that mean that the accents can change at anytime and so the other insruments, palmas etc has to change too?

Another question I have is, does polyrhythm apply to those other forms?

By the way, is the first example of considered picado? http://home.comcast.net/~flamencoguitar/Picado.htm
I've never seen it elsewhere before.

Thanks,
Skai

_____________________________

Try some Enrique Iglesias for some great cante.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 6 2005 5:47:07

Ricardo

Posts: 14845
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: 12-beat Polyrhythm (in reply to Skai)

Using the clock is a good tool for learning, but is misleading for bulerias. You would have to think of it as 6 on top AND on the bottom. So 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock are the same, it doesn't matter which side you are on.

I guess the 12 hour clock works fine for Solea most of the time. Siguiriyas works mathematically, but again you are mislead interms of phrasing, depending on how you use the clock. Alegrias, Solea por Bulerias, and Guajiras would work w/ the clock as well, but they all have different palmas than Bulerias. Also the guitar plays and moves chords a little differently in bulerias than the others. I say learn how to play some fundamental compas and simple falsetas first, worry about counting later.

Also, if the guitar is changing accents/feel, the palmas don't have to change, the rhythm keeps moving. Likewise if there are two palmeros doubling up and doing counter time or straight 16th notes (taka taka taka...) the guitar does not have to do anything special. That is the freedom of improvisation in flamenco. But when there is a remate everyone should feel it and stop.

Poly rhythm can apply to any rhythmic music, but bulerias makes a special use of it by constantly changing feels and juxtaposing accents.

The first example on the page you linked to, is as the text describes, a pulgar/index excercise (not picado). The "Picado" header is a bit misleading, but all the excercises after that first one are deffinantly picado excercises.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 6 2005 8:22:26

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: 12-beat Polyrhythm (in reply to Skai)

Hi Skai,
The 12 beat "compás clock" doesn't actually exist, in the same way that atoms aren't really little balls orbiting a bigger ball with smaller balls inside. Thats only a lot of balls (

), but does give an initial visualization of what's going on.
Although it's not accurate, it can act as a learning aid up to a point, thereafter the model will not hold and eventually become a hindrance to further understanding.
My advice would be to not get too analytical about it at this stage.
Remember, your goal is to be able to play the rhythm, not necessarily be able to give a discourse on it!
If using the standard 12 beat clock helps you get to a higher level, then fine.
It's just that it won't answer all the "irregularities" that you will come across.
I don't know of any single method or "formula" that does.
In one of Don Pohren's books, he mentions explaining to a Gitano guitarist that Soleares had 12 beats and the guy was amazed, playing all the Soleares falsetas he knew and counting them out and being highly amused and entertained that they had 12 or a multiple of 12 beats!
Up until then he'd simply just played and accompanied unaware of that "useful" fact.
So there you go!

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 6 2005 8:39:06