Granaina in C#

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Granaina in C#

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mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

Granaina in C#

this Granaina played in C# by Manolo Sanlucar was first recorded and released in the early 1970's (1972 I think) on vol 2 of "Mundo Y Formas De La Guitarra Flamenca"

Does this make it the earliest recording to make use of this tono/key (C# phrygian)? And if not, does anyone have anything earlier?

I wonder where he got the idea from? I think he said it was something like accompanying granaina and media granaina and the singer changing tono/key to go from one to the other, but i didn't understand the explanation fully.

i guess it could also come from the modulation in alegrias when in C major you go to E phrygian (especially as in Caracoles) and in E major you go to G# phrygian, so in A it would be C#.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 16 2010 22:49:16

NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007

RE: Granaina in C# (in reply to mark indigo)

Mark, for the last few weeks I've been meaning to post a message that is nearly identical to yours, with the same video, the reference to alegrías in A, and the same suspicion that Manolo's might be the earliest known example of playing in this key. The track on Mundo y Formas is called "Brindis para Alberto Vélez," so maybe he had something to do with it.

It'd be interesting to make a list of recordings (solo and accompaniment) in that key. Although I didn't find anything in the forum archives, I think someone's mentioned a number of tracks in C#, or maybe in D#.

quote:

I wonder where he got the idea from?

IMO, whoever thought of it first probably just noticed the gap between the other toques (in this case, between granaína and por arriba) and realized that, although the C# tonic is unusual, all the other "fandango" chords in that key are standard stuff: C#, D, E, F# minor, A and B7.

Same thing for toque de minera.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 17 2010 7:53:14

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3431
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Granaina in C# (in reply to mark indigo)

Ramon Montoya's "Rondeña" is in C# Phrygian. The tuning is D-A-d-f#-b-e. The piece spends a lot of time sounding like it's in D-major, but when it finally resolves--several times--it's to C#.

For me it's what gives the piece its unique character.

RNJ

OK, now I've listened to the video.

Not surprisingly it bears considerable resemblance to Montoya's piece, a few parts copy it verbatim. I wonder whether it evolved from Montoya's "Rondeña", or Escudero's piece of the same name, an homage to Montoya?

As usual, I really enjoy Manolo's playing.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 17 2010 15:39:19

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Granaina in C# (in reply to NormanKliman)

quote:

for the last few weeks I've been meaning to post a message that is nearly identical to yours

spooky!

quote:

The track on Mundo y Formas is called "Brindis para Alberto Vélez," so maybe he had something to do with it.

i don't know anything about Alberto Velez, never heard anything by him so don't know...

quote:

It'd be interesting to make a list of recordings (solo and accompaniment) in that key.

I think Paco De Lucia recorded bulerias in C# live in 1984 (but not sure about this), and Enrique De Melchor recorded a a fandango de huelva in this key on Bajo La Luna album (1989)

one of my first posts on the foro was about unusual/non-trad keys in standard tuning ie. anything in C# or D# phrygian and anything other than tarantas, granainas or mineras in F#, B and G# respectively.

there are now so many bulerias/tangos/solea/fandangos etc. in these keys recorded that a list would be humungous!

but i think documenting the earliest recording or recordings is both interesting (to see how things have started and developed) and possible ('cos the list wouldn't be too big!).

i think the earliest recording in D# is Tomatito's rumba Alejandria (1987), but I understand playing in D# started as an attempt at playing Rondeña without altered tuning, so there is maybe an earlier recording of toque libre somewhere....

both Riqueni (1986) and Gerardo (1987) recorded bulerias in G#, they are the earliest I know of.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 17 2010 20:55:53

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Granaina in C# (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

quote:

Ramon Montoya's "Rondeña" is in C# Phrygian. The tuning is D-A-d-f#-b-e.

The Manolo Sanlucar Granaina in C# in the video and recorded on the "Mundo Y Formas" album as "Brindis para Alberto Vélez" is in standard tuning.

Manolo also recorded a rondeña (in rondeña tuning) on the Mundo Y Formas" album, called "A Don Ramon Montoya"

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 17 2010 20:59:19

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3431
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Granaina in C# (in reply to mark indigo)

To my ear, Manolo's C# Granaina (in standard tuning) has more in common with Montoya's Rondeña than Manolo's Rondeña does--in melodic and figurative elements.

Of course Manolo's Rondeña is harmonically similar to Montoya's. And the cante section of Manolo`s Granaina is pure Granaina.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 18 2010 19:15:51

Ricardo

Posts: 14844
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Granaina in C# (in reply to mark indigo)

Interesting. he does a lot of uncomfy barres IMO, so most of it works just as good in E minor (B phrygian). I hear the spot where he took from montoya too, but without the tuning of rondeña it is not fair to say that is the influence. I think he might have gotten the idea to do the entire piece from the brief excursions into that key (C# phyrigian) by PDL on his interpretation of Panaderos of Esteban Sanlucar and later his own guajira. Perhaps manolo had to accompany someone and did not have a cejilla one day? We can only speculate.

Anyway, I feel the modern bulerias of Paco and some others have A LOT more of what the key has to offer.

About D# correct about Tomatito's rumba. Dont' forget Nuñez's Gallo Azul came out the same year as tomatito's album, and he already had a very long Tangos and parts of Granaina in D# pretty well evolved. Enrique del Melchor also had a buleria but not sure of the year but around the same time. It seems everyone started working in that key at about the same time period. I only know of one piece PDL has ever recorded in that key. Anyone know the one I mean?

As a side note, I dont know of anything by nuñez in C# phyrigian.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 20 2010 18:14:29

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Granaina in C# (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Anyway, I feel the modern bulerias of Paco and some others have A LOT more of what the key has to offer.

Sure, absolutely, point is that this granaina is recorded like a decade earlier than anything else in this key, so embryonic and experimental and not very worked out yet.

quote:

Dont' forget Nuñez's Gallo Azul came out the same year as tomatito's album

oh yeah, forgot about that tangos, so that would be same year as Tomatito released Rosas Del Amor...

quote:

Enrique del Melchor also had a buleria but not sure of the year but around the same time.

Bulerias called "Callejon Del Aire" on "La Noche Y El Dia" lp/cd released in 1991, but excerpt also on his Encuentro vid, not sure which year that was released but I think it was one of the first two, filmed in Spain before they decided it was too hot under studio lights in Spain in August and started flying the artists to Switzerland to record

Incidentally on the version/excerpt on Enrique's Encuentro vid there is a libre intro with tremelo falseta which confirms the story i heard that playing in D# started as attempt to play rondeña in standard tuning. Manolo Franco's Encuentro vid also has D# bulerias with libre intro.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 20 2010 18:28:37

Estevan

Posts: 1936
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: Granaina in C# (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

quote:

[Richard Jernigan:] And the cante section of Manolo's Granaina is pure Granaina.

I'd like to know when the practice started of playing a whole cante melody in the context of a solo granaína. The earlier ones that I've heard are usually a mish-mash of falsetas, bits of accompaniment, tremolos, etc. without quoting an actual song the way this one does. (Not that they all do now, but there are some notable examples - Pepe Habichuela, Miguel Angel Cortés).
Was it Manolo who started it?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 6 2010 0:22:51

Ricardo

Posts: 14844
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Granaina in C# (in reply to Estevan)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Estevan

quote:

[Richard Jernigan:] And the cante section of Manolo's Granaina is pure Granaina.

I'd like to know when the practice started of playing a whole cante melody in the context of a solo granaína. The earlier ones that I've heard are usually a mish-mash of falsetas, bits of accompaniment, tremolos, etc. without quoting an actual song the way this one does. (Not that they all do now, but there are some notable examples - Pepe Habichuela, Miguel Angel Cortés).
Was it Manolo who started it?

Carlos Montoya did it for granaina, I remember Grisha playing an example of that arrangement. He got the idea from RAMON obviously, and I would say the idea of making a falseta based on cante is not strictly for granaina, but has been done for other forms in the fandango family. Mimicking the singing with falsetas is a very old practice. PDL has done for Minera and fandangos (huelva style) and I remember him sticking cafe de chinitas into a granaina once. But tons of examples pre manolo for sure.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 6 2010 16:07:28