agressive flamenco

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agressive flamenco

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Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

agressive flamenco

I thought about the flamenco palos and their mood.

There we have i.e.

Alegria: happy
Buleria: funny, happy, cool
Seguiriya: tragic, sad
Guajia, noble
Garrotin: maybe serious... whatever..

Ok.. and many more.

We have almost all moods but no aggression like in heavy metal. Why not?

When you are seriously sad about maybe somebody died or you lost your job and ended up on the street.. the tragic feeling can easily turn into aggression. Its there for sure.. but why is there no agressive flamenco palo. (Excluding the dance-style of Farruquito which is pretty aggressive IMO)

So... do you have an idea?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2010 18:29:30

orsonw

Posts: 1941
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: agressive flamenco (in reply to Doitsujin)

Your analysis of emotion in flamenco palos is fairly superficial and one dimensional-judging by your new avatar maybe that's the kind of day you're having? (insert smiley here)

One of the great things about Flamenco for me is that it is able to convey emotion as it actually is- not one dimensional sentiment but a rich mixture of seeming opposites occuring together. For me there's plenty of every human emotion that exists expressed in flamenco including aggression, which I hear plenty of.

more straightforward answer- Bulerias, Seguiriya, Solea por bulerias, Solea can all have aggression.
Sometimes I don't like jazzy chords in flamenco because it looses it's aggression. The cano roto players are great because they use creative chord inversions but usually without getting too cheesey or smooth jazz sounding.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2010 19:17:57

NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007

RE: agressive flamenco (in reply to Doitsujin)

My how you've changed!

(avatar)

Bulerías and siguiriyas can be very "aggressive" as you say, even some soleás.

I don't mean to be picky, but there are better words than "aggressive," although no adjectives come to mind right now. The styles I mentioned sometimes express the frustration and rage that come from certain situations in life for which there is no solution.

This one has angry words but sounds happy (Florian, you're going to like this one).

Bulería sung by Manuel Torre:

Te voy a dar una puñalada,
que la mano a la boca,
no te la puedas llevar.

I'm going to stab you so bad
that you won't even be able
to cover your mouth with your hand

++++++++++++++++++++++

This one has angry words and he really sounds angry. Very angry!

Soleá sung by Antonio Mairena:

Como no puedo vengarme
de lo que has hecho conmigo,
hablaré con Undebel
para que te mande un castigo.

Since I can't get revenge
for what you did to me
I'm going to talk to Undebel
and he's going to punish you

+++++++++++++++++++++++++

Siguiriya sung by Antonio Mairena:

A la muerte yo llamo
y no quiere venir,
que hasta la muerte tiene compañera,
lástima de mí.

I'm calling out to death
and death doesn't want to come
Even death feels
sorry for me

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2010 19:20:10

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: agressive flamenco (in reply to Doitsujin)

quote:

I'm going to stab you so bad
that you won't even be able
to cover your mouth with your hand

thats beautiful

..is it like a love song ?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2010 19:33:37

odinz

Posts: 407
Joined: May 26 2010
From: Sarpsborg,Norway

RE: agressive flamenco (in reply to Doitsujin)

Hi Doit.
People that doesnt know Flamenco very well seems to think much of it is very aggressive.

Im not sure though i am no expert, maybe I think the taranta sounds most like it though although it is more sad/tragic.

To me agression feels quite tragic and overpowering, like you are losing yourself into something bad.

Then again maybe the agression is allways there somehow, between everything else.

This is just how i feel though, but i am not n expert at all, hardly even a beginner

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2010 19:35:13

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: agressive flamenco (in reply to odinz)

quote:

We have almost all moods but no aggression like in heavy metal. Why not?

mostly because we are more cool but..theres plenty of agressive elements in flamenco too....and dont say there is not or il stab you in the face put gasoline down your throat and light you on fire

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2010 19:37:17

NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007

RE: agressive flamenco (in reply to Florian)

quote:

thats beautiful ..is it a love song ?

Ha-ha! The best "love song" was recorded by Juan Talega:

Cuando a ti nadie te quiera
ven que yo a ti te querré
que el daño que me hiciste
que yo te lo recompensaré

When nobody loves you
come to me and I'll love you
I'll pay you back
for the way you hurt me

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2010 19:38:13

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: agressive flamenco (in reply to Doitsujin)

quote:

When nobody loves you
come to me and I'll love you
I'll pay you back
for the way you hurt me

thats beautiful too...thats bitter flamenco

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2010 19:44:12

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: agressive flamenco (in reply to Doitsujin)

Oh..Norman... these letras are very aggressive.. I didn´t know these kind of letras. This "stabbing" letra is very surprising.. I mean,..I don´t like aggression, I´m just curious.

Well,. so there is aggression. Thanks for the input! at the cante and dance side. And once I saw a guitarist who literally slapped the **** out of his guitar very aggressively.. for a dancer. Lets say there is partially aggression. But the general moods of the palos are not aggressive.. I mean as the examples I wrote down in the first post. As Alegrias has as major mood "happiness". There is a noble feeling during the silencio ok..but the alegrias is basically meant to be "happy".
And a palo which major mood is aggressive doesn´t exist. Right?

Im just curious.. because in flamenco is all about big feelings but real aggression is not taking a big part... I like that but wonder coz aggression belongs to the feelings..

To my avatar: Better mood than before...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2010 20:12:58

Ricardo

Posts: 14852
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: agressive flamenco (in reply to Doitsujin)

Aggression could be the way one interprets or expresses the rhythm. For example, Chano lobato's way to sing rhythmically is very agressive to me, even though he sings happy songs.

Compared to other singers of the same letras. For guitar players it should be obvious if they play aggressive rhythm or laid back rhythm. Same for dancers.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2010 20:21:39

akatune

Posts: 188
Joined: Mar. 28 2008

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jan. 13 2013 16:55:03

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2010 21:56:27

Escribano

Posts: 6417
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: agressive flamenco (in reply to Doitsujin)

I sense revenge in flamenco but not aggression (an aggressive style or perfomance, yes) but aggression is of the moment, whilst revenge is when it's cold.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2010 22:16:30

Munin

Posts: 595
Joined: Sep. 30 2008
From: Hong Kong

RE: agressive flamenco (in reply to Doitsujin)

Very much agree with what akatune said. I got into flamenco because classical music was too mechanical, soft and boring. To me flamenco is the punk rock of the world musics, if you will. Both musically and lyrically speaking.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 28 2010 0:41:57

akatune

Posts: 188
Joined: Mar. 28 2008

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jan. 13 2013 16:55:15

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 28 2010 4:28:06

xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1896
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: agressive flamenco (in reply to akatune)

listen to Cano's work on Gerardo's student album, pretty aggressive, bittersweet stuff...also Jeronimo can be really aggressive...there's no palo which can be labeled aggressive but most of them can be played that way...especially if you watch some dance performances, they can get hard there, accompaniment too, although the aggression seems to be always attached to an emotion...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 28 2010 10:51:22

Mike_Kinny

Posts: 689
Joined: Feb. 12 2009

RE: agressive flamenco (in reply to Doitsujin)

Alzapua is very aggressive and rasgeos often are aggressive no matter in which palo they're used.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 29 2010 8:28:18

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: agressive flamenco (in reply to Doitsujin)

Well,.. yes aggressional parts are there..but I thought about the general mood of a palo itself and wondered why there is no "hate" palo... but only "moan" palos (the depressive ones)

Did the gitanos have no aggression? Only moaning wimps? That can´t be..so there must be a palo for shouting out the hate.. Or it got lost. That would be interesting for flamencologists.. ^^

The letras Norman posted were the stuff I was thinking about.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 29 2010 14:27:51

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: agressive flamenco (in reply to Doitsujin)

we could make a new aggressive palo for doit.

meanwhile enjoy this and let your aggressions flow

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 29 2010 14:32:12

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: agressive flamenco (in reply to Arash)

quote:

we could make a new aggressive palo for doit.

Lucharias

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 29 2010 17:04:47

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: agressive flamenco (in reply to Doitsujin)

LOOOL

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 29 2010 17:37:35

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: agressive flamenco (in reply to Doitsujin)

quote:

Did the gitanos have no aggression? Only moaning wimps? That can´t be..so there must be a palo for shouting out the hate.. Or it got lost. That would be interesting for flamencologists.. ^^

when you are completely suppressed you can't openly express hate or aggression or you will be punished, whipped, shot, hung drawn and quartered, burnt at the stake etc. (so that's why the letras don't say it openly).

so you have to express your suffocating rage in other ways.... flamenco is completely shot through with controlled and restrained aggression and rage IMO

if the flamencologists haven't already written about this at great length, there is at least one cultural studies book out there on this subject (i read one some years ago)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 29 2010 20:39:36