Cante accompanyment - a question

Costs are rising and times are tough.
Please consider a donation to keep this
place going.

Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.

You are logged in as Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >>Discussions >>General >>

Page: [1]

Message

<< Newer Topic Older Topic >>

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

Cante accompanyment - a question

Hi guys,

my problem at the moment practicing with CD's is that on the old recordings, often the guitar accompanyment isn't exactly perfect, different and sometimes incorrect chords are played, the singer holds a tone a half a compás longer, this and the fact that different chords CAN word in one situation makes it hard to know what's right.

An example:
Solea por Buleria, if a singer goes up to D with the voice then down to A, it's possible to go from the A to A# then back to A OR from A over C7 to F without it sounding wrong.

When is what "wrong" or simply a question of taste?

_____________________________

Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 11 2010 3:11:10

Ricardo

Posts: 14848
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Cante accompanyment - a question (in reply to John O.)

quote:

Solea por Buleria, if a singer goes up to D with the voice then down to A, it's possible to go from the A to A# then back to A OR from A over C7 to F without it sounding wrong.

It depends what line of verse the singer is on. Typical Solea is 3 lines of verse, but could be 4. The second and 3rd lines MIGHT repeat, even with melodic variation. In rare cases some words might change. (Remember Solea verse works for Solxbul and buleria too....so same exact idea)

So first line may go A-Dm, or A-E, or both if it repeats. OR it may be a simple stay on A or at most Bb back to A.

SECOND LINE will be the one that goes C7-F, and may be in the half compas or stretched so watch out and dont' go to the F chord early, but understand what is the second line of verse (or 3rd line of verse in the cases of the 4 liners).

3rd or final line always resolves back to A from Bb. So the second line is really the thing to watch out for and study, where the likes of Caracol or Paquera types will stretch it even for a couple compases, or Jerezanos end up starting in the middle of the compas etc etc....

So think 3 lines of verse and then try to grasp the basic melodies (alcala frijones etc etc) and how any 3 line verse might fit the different melodies. And even how the same letra can be used for other palos such as bulerias.

Then after all look for the rare irregular popular letras like Caracol's famous version of:
No doblen las campanas (A-Dm or A-E or both if it repeats, OR just Bb-A, depends on melody)
Creyeron que una Reina (C-F....unless below happens then stay on C)
(una reina no era) (C-F for sure if this happens)
Era una probe gitana (Bb-A)

And the last THREE above could possibly repeat...possibly, or 2 and 4 could repeat minus the extended added 3rd line....

But it is such a standard you must know it.

So bottom line, play F at the wrong time and you get an "F" in accompaniment.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 11 2010 5:44:38

NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007

RE: Cante accompanyment - a question (in reply to John O.)

Hi John,

If you're thinking of something specific, you might have to upload an example to get some useful feedback. In any case, wouldn't it depend on what line of verse is being sung? Cambio happens over last two lines of written verse.

EDIT: Whoops, I guess I didn't see Ricardo's reply.

_____________________________

Be here now.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 11 2010 5:46:00

Ricardo

Posts: 14848
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Cante accompanyment - a question (in reply to Ricardo)

Por solea see 4:21

Or por buleria see 3:00

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 11 2010 6:39:30

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: Cante accompanyment - a question (in reply to Ricardo)

Ricardo, you're right, please smack me. I'm a dork and always make everything too difficult. Thanks though for writing out what I very well should know is the case. I do know the structure very well, have accompanied it many times and wish I hadn't posted this

Right now I'm putting 30 of a palo at a time in my media player and am only focusing on following the voice trying not to falsely expect what will be sung - so I'm actually shutting out any structure that I already know should be there. It seemed to me that without dance they could be a bit more free with what they sung and how, as in bulerias. See sentence 2.

Let me have a listen to some of my recordings and maybe I can let you know what I mean. If not please pretend this didn't happen

_____________________________

Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 11 2010 13:50:42

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: Cante accompanyment - I knew I w... (in reply to John O.)

Okay, here's Mairena:
Rapidshare

At 3:06 and 6:27 he starts a letra which my insticts would tell me to go from C7 to F, as the guitarist also does, however sticking to the strict structure Bb to A works too.

Either he's singing the two lines together more quickly or starting at line two and one has to know the letra or the guitarist gets an F - so what am I missing?

_____________________________

Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2010 7:00:03

Ricardo

Posts: 14848
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Cante accompanyment - I knew I w... (in reply to John O.)

Both of those letras are what I think Norman called "Buleria Corta", as they seem short I guess. The give away is the change in the first line, first compas, to E7 (not sure if the guitar gets it both times but the voice is clear going to B natural),

Then the second line comes in C7-F like normal. Seems on the repeat the first one he added a "mi flamenquita prima" extension....watchout for those and "prima de mi alma" type extensions to the 2nd line of verse. Idea is hold C7 and get to F a half compas later in most cases. In fact on Norman's site, 100% of the literal half compas remates in bulerias por solea that he found (rare examples of the guitar not keeping 12 beats) were right on the spots where the singer extends with "prima de mi alma".

here is another "buleria corta" at 3:18

Notice the same structure as Mairena melody, but again guitar misses the E7, and then he switches out the chords that should go C7-F, he does F-C7 instead. He does that that in every solea por medio actually. Moraito does it too very rarely.
Ricardo

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2010 8:18:56

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: Cante accompanyment - I knew I w... (in reply to Ricardo)

Ahhhh, okay know these as bulerias but didn't make the connection. Thank you much, got it now!

Need to check out Norman's site. Time to start learning the lyrics to the letras...

_____________________________

Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2010 8:30:02

NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007

RE: Cante accompanyment - I knew I w... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

In fact on Norman's site, 100% of the literal half compas remates in bulerias por solea that he found (rare examples of the guitar not keeping 12 beats) were right on the spots where the singer extends with "prima de mi alma".

Not all the examples are like that. Lines like "prima mía de mi alma" are called "versos tópicos," I think (zero verse?). They're not part of the original letra and singers throw them in to keep things rolling. I know you guys know that, but it's good to make all of this clear. So, when there's a "zero" verse, it's always at the cambio, and when there's a half compás, it always happens at the cambio, but there isn't always a zero verse when there's a half compás, and vice-versa. The half compás seems to depend on the guitarist because it was recorded by guys from the north, mainly Montoya, the Borrulls, Paco Aguilera and Manolo de Badajoz (he was montoyista), but never by Melchor or Niño Ricardo as far as I know. I don't think Eduardo de La Malena recorded it, either. He was muy ricardista, so maybe he was copying Niño Ricardo's preference, but Eduardo lived his entire life very close to the Alameda de Hércules in Seville, where bulería por soleá was developed (or at least gained popularity).

_____________________________

Be here now.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 13 2010 21:51:33