French polished soundboard

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Armando

Posts: 302
Joined: May 27 2005
From: Zürich, Switzerland

French polished soundboard

Hy

Most makers and most players agree that french polish is the best choice for beauty and tone on a high quality classical or flamenco guitar.
I agree on this as well but i'm facing a problem. French polish is just too fragile. It does not really protect the soft wood of a guitar top. Only the slightest hit on the top is causing dings and dents. I have a Valeriano Bernal guitar with a varnish almost bullet proof. That guitar is very resistant against hits but the sound is strongly limited due to the thick plastic alike varnish on it's surface. So, none of the two is satisfactorly.

Does anybody have experience with the different kind of varnishes and how can we improve the resistance of the top against scratches, dings and dents without to use a 1mm thick plastic finish?

DonArmando

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2010 6:21:56

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: French polished soundboard (in reply to Armando)

Hey Armando,
I know there are certain hardeners that can be added to shellac, some chemical and some natural.
Do you use oil in french polishing? I think Eugene Clark recommends using walnut oil as a hardener.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2010 6:50:10

Armando

Posts: 302
Joined: May 27 2005
From: Zürich, Switzerland

RE: French polished soundboard (in reply to Armando)

Hi deteresa1

Yes i'm using oil, as the mouse would stick without. However i think the oil is only slowing the hardening process but the final hardness remains the same. I have FP guitars more than a year old and they still have a very fragile surface.
I always french polish at least 7 times.

regards

Armando

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2010 7:25:43

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: French polished soundboard (in reply to Armando)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Armando

Hi deteresa1

Yes i'm using oil, as the mouse would stick without. However i think the oil is only slowing the hardening process but the final hardness remains the same. I have FP guitars more than a year old and they still have a very fragile surface.
I always french polish at least 7 times.

regards

Armando

Walnut oil does strengthen the finish a little but it also can create a mess if it is the only contributor to the final polish. I have used walnut oil but went back to regular olive oil as the best additive for french polish. The trick is to let the finish dry out a few months before using the guitar.

Once the finish is about a year old it becomes tougher to scratch. But we have to remember that top wood is soft and it will not protect from nail dents and such, from lazy hands. The best way to avoid scratching up the top is to keep your hands centered on the tap plate.

If you can't do this, then buy a cheap guitar that you can ruin without having to spend too much money.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2010 7:41:00

diazf

Posts: 52
Joined: Jan. 2 2006
From: NYC

RE: French polished soundboard (in reply to Armando)

I noticed LMI is offering this additive to harden shellac (FP ) finish. I haven't tried it yet but sounds like you may want to try it. It's on their homepage and called: U-Beaut Hard Shellac.

Cheers,
--Fabian

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2010 7:50:28

estebanana

Posts: 9354
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: French polished soundboard (in reply to Armando)

Oh Boy ! What a topic.

Walnut oil is a drying oil, olive oil is not. Walnut oil may incorporate with the shellac, olive oil most likely not.

Adding substances to shellac just makes it perfom worse (worser?). For example adding sandrac to make it harder causes it to be brittle. Shellac is natures plastic, it's best by itself.

The stuff LMI sells is a chemically altered shellac which crosslinks. Test it yourself, but it's not the magic bullet.

It's less evil for the guitar to have a thin finish and a tap plate than a heavy finish and a tap plate.

That is my final answer.

Slumdog Shellacoinaire.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2010 9:25:00

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: French polished soundboard (in reply to Armando)

quote:

ORIGINAL: I have a Valeriano Bernal guitar with a varnish almost bullet proof. That guitar is very resistant against hits but the sound is strongly limited due to the thick plastic alike varnish on it's surface. So, none of the two is satisfactorly.

"Varnish" is one of those generic terms frequently used for any finish. In the US varnish is a specific formula of a resin from tree sap (usually), turpentine, oils, etc. that is seldom used anymore since it has been supplanted by more versatile and dependable synthetic finishes like polyurethane.

Probably what is on your Bernal is some form of polyester, urethane or one of the other myriad synthetics. These finishes have wonderful characteristics like quick cure, self leveling, extreme durability and resistance to virtually all solvents; but they don't necessarily sound that great on musical instruments.

If you want to try something other than FP there is really only one alternative and that is nitrocellulose lacquer. Believe me, it's no easier to apply than FP and the fumes from the lacquer and thinners are toxic so you should have good ventilation and wear a respirator. The other disadvantage is the expense of the spray equipment. I prefer it to french polish for my own reasons and believe it does no more harm to the sound of the guitar than FP.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2010 10:13:35

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: French polished soundboard (in reply to Armando)

I agree with John, Nitro is the only alternative to French Polish

Its what was used on many Spanish (Madrid especially) guitars before they got comfortable and started to use plastic (polyester, urethane and polyurethane)

Nitro guitars get dings as well because the finish is very thin (thats why it sounds good)
IMO, its a matter of attitude. A flamenco guitar which is been used a lot will get dings... And so what? They can be refinished and personally I have nothing against guitars which look used. I actually think they look better.

Both nitro and FP maintains a woody feel of guitar. This I like, some dings gives it character.

All the factory guitars now look the same. You can buy a new orange plastic covered Alhambra with a flower rosette on a pale background. And you can buy a new orange plastic covered Conde with a flower rosette on a pale background.
They almost look the same.
Compare with a luthier build guitar finished with FP or nitro and you´ll see the difference. The other ones will look like a chineese toy.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2010 1:16:33

Armando

Posts: 302
Joined: May 27 2005
From: Zürich, Switzerland

RE: French polished soundboard (in reply to Armando)

Thanks for all the comments

I was thinking about alternatives to french polish because i'm really dissatisfied with the protective properties of french polish. After four weeks it is still so soft that it does not offer minimal protection to the top. The slightest touching causes a scratch or a dent. Even when the strings are touching the top during string replacement, it's enough to scratch the top.

So that should not be, as it is impossible to sell an instrument allready scratched rightaway from the workshop.

The problem is that soundwise there is no real alternative. i would probably try some other varnishes but rather on backs and sides than on the top and these are the non critical areas.

regards

Armando

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 11 2010 12:11:43

estebanana

Posts: 9354
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: French polished soundboard (in reply to Armando)

Is your shellac stock fresh? And what do you mean still soft after a month? How soft. You should not have problems with string lying on the top making indentations.

Some types of bleached blonde shellac have a shelf life dry and when liquified with alcohol they need to be used soon. Sometimes bleached shellacs can go soft if you let them sit in the jar for a few months.

I don't know what your skill level is with french polishing, but there are techniques to use while you apply the shellac to help make the finish more resilient to abrasions and dings.

You also should make some kind of cardboard or waste cut off mylar protection sheet that you can use while doing set up, frets stringing etc. And it is a must to have soft old soft bath towels to nest fresh instruments on whileyou work on them.

You just have to be really careful, but you can sell guitars with scratches in them, old discounted a bit. It sucks when you botch up your own stuff, but if you do it a few times you get more careful.

And you might look into having someone shoot on nitro for you. If I had a customer who insisted on lacquer I would pay good money to get it done by a good finisher. I don't spray it myself because I'm not in a building that will support a spray system, but it does make for a harder finish than shellac. l think if lacquer is judiciously applied it can be as non damping as possible and protective. It's also easier to get an even color coat on the guitar.

There are also padding lacquers, I used to use them to finish table tops, they are very hard and some guitar makers use them.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 11 2010 13:36:08

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: French polished soundboard (in reply to Armando)

Armando

I dont understand your worries. After 4 weeks, shellack should be pretty hard. Well, at least hard enough. And do as Stephen says when changing strings etc.

I have a "swing around" guitar which I finished 6 years ago. Its been everywhere, in the caravan, car, partys etc and it looks beaten, but the French polish is not the reason. it has one or two dings like you describe them and thats it.

Another problem might be that you are way to much into perfection. That the guitar must look like its totally untouched. Remember that its a handmade instruments, and one of the things that distinguish handmade and French Polished guitars from Plastic covered factory guitars is that you can see that hands have been on them.
I always try to do my job the best I can, but if there´s a little imperfection somewhere, I dont get nervous.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 12 2010 0:01:38

Ricardo

Posts: 14825
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: French polished soundboard (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

MO, its a matter of attitude. A flamenco guitar which is been used a lot will get dings... And so what? They can be refinished and personally I have nothing against guitars which look used. I actually think they look better.

I agree.... I am scared to play a guitar with no ding or scratch....or even a little crack here or there is good.

About Conde, I played an FP Conde which had the lovely scrapes and dings, but did not necessarily sound better then the "plastic" ones.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 12 2010 6:00:46

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: French polished soundboard (in reply to Armando)

I think most Condes are finished with Nitro, so they do not fall into the "plastic" category.

Maybe the ones from the last few years are finished with Polyurethane and then they surely are plastic guitars

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 12 2010 9:43:55

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: French polished soundboard (in reply to Armando)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Armando

The problem is that soundwise there is no real alternative.

Not trying to instigate an argument but how do you know? Where's your empirical evidence? Have you ever tried nitrocellulose lacquer? How come expert players like Ricardo don't hear a difference?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 12 2010 9:44:17

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: French polished soundboard (in reply to jshelton5040)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jshelton5040

quote:

ORIGINAL: Armando

The problem is that soundwise there is no real alternative.

Not trying to instigate an argument but how do you know? Where's your empirical evidence? Have you ever tried nitrocellulose lacquer? How come expert players like Ricardo don't hear a difference?

John,

I tried using a good nitro-laquer finisher in California for my guitars and he did good work but the finish was a little too thick for my taste. I had him apply color to the top, back, and sides, with an added potassium dichromate neck color, on an East Indian classical, with spruce top, and it looked beautiful but did not have the sound of a FP that I normally did for myself. I wish I had a good laquer finisher in San Antonio to finish my sides, back, and neck for me.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 12 2010 10:15:45

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: French polished soundboard (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

I tried using a good nitro-laquer finisher in California for my guitars and he did good work but the finish was a little too thick for my taste. I had him apply color to the top, back, and sides, with an added potassium dichromate neck color, on an East Indian classical, with spruce top, and it looked beautiful but did not have the sound of a FP that I normally did for myself. I wish I had a good laquer finisher in San Antonio to finish my sides, back, and neck for me.

That's the problem with any spray on finish. It's really easy to put it on too thick. To do it right (my opinion you understand) it needs to be applied in many very thin coats and each coat is sanded almost completely away before the next coat is applied. This method greatly reduces the risk of crazing and produces a finish with good depth and luster without that "plastic" look.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 12 2010 11:48:39