My 7-string flamenca

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Mike_Kinny

Posts: 689
Joined: Feb. 12 2009

My 7-string flamenca

I was making a 7-string classical and guess what. It came out flamenco.

Here are some pictures:
http://s852.photobucket.com/albums/ab85/Mike_Kinny/Guitar%20No%206/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 8 2010 7:54:00

kovachian

Posts: 506
Joined: Jan. 30 2008
From: Americanistan

RE: My 7-string flamenca (in reply to Mike_Kinny)

That headstock is, well...it's different.

But what matters of course is the sound. How is it?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 8 2010 11:51:36

Mike_Kinny

Posts: 689
Joined: Feb. 12 2009

RE: My 7-string flamenca (in reply to kovachian)

The intention was to make a classical guitar, so I tried to give it a good deal of harmonics. However what's for sure is that it's not a classical. The basses are too dominating. Understandably it has more harmonics than a typical flamenco, kind of wetter sound. Overall it's very loud (loudest of all my guitars).

I will make a recording with it later.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 8 2010 12:21:06

chapman_g

Posts: 227
Joined: Apr. 11 2007

RE: My 7-string flamenca (in reply to Mike_Kinny)

Mike,
No offense intended, but if the basses are very dominating what makes you think the guitar will be better for flamenco than classical? Overpowering, Boomy basses are one of the identified problems when one puts a tap plate on a classical and tries using it for flamenco.

Michael

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 8 2010 13:08:47

Mike_Kinny

Posts: 689
Joined: Feb. 12 2009

RE: My 7-string flamenca (in reply to chapman_g)

My understanding of a good classical guitar is that the bases should accompany the trebles (melody). So the trebles should be louder than the bases. Bases should also be soft and undefined as opposed to flamenco bases that should be sharp and defined.

More precisely I would say more harmonics in both trebles and bases in classical plus louder trebles. For flamenco Less harmonics in trebles and bases but louder bases.

It's just my opinion.

btw Manolo Sanlucar plays a classical guitar fitted with a lower bridge and golpeadores.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 8 2010 13:35:41

Mike_Kinny

Posts: 689
Joined: Feb. 12 2009

RE: My 7-string flamenca (in reply to Mike_Kinny)

quote:

For flamenco Less harmonics in trebles and bases but louder bases.

Not that they should be louder but when you go for a guitar with less harmonics the basses automatically come out louder.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 8 2010 13:44:01

estebanana

Posts: 9367
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: My 7-string flamenca (in reply to Mike_Kinny)

Congratulations. You accomplished a lot, especially the raised fret board style neck. That's not an easy thing to build. Next take it to the best guitar maker in your area that you trust and who is really a good builder and ask them to critique it for you. Both from the perspective of playing and structure.

Then make some more. :)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 8 2010 22:31:07

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: My 7-string flamenca (in reply to Mike_Kinny)

Sorry if I sound a bit rough

A guitar with a setup like that i would never call a flamenco guitar. Never mind the sound of it. You play yourself, no?

How big is the distance between the strings and the soundboard at the soundhole? To me it looks like you would completely loose control of your tecnique and that your thumb will be floating around underneath the 6th string. I dont think that any good flamenco player would accept a guitar like that. Remember that a flamenco guitar is so many other things than sound.

I like your headstock. I like that you´ve had the guts to do something which is your own. Nice rosette as well.

I will repeat that I know that i sound rough, but reality is that if i took a guitar like that to a good player here, he would look at me like if I didn´t know anything about flamenco guitars, and from now on he and his friends would consider me a bad luthier. Not good for business.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 8 2010 23:28:18

Mike_Kinny

Posts: 689
Joined: Feb. 12 2009

RE: My 7-string flamenca (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Nothing rough about your post and thanks for the endorsements.

The setup is definitely classical. Maybe I should rather call it a flamingo guitar :)

However a raised fingerboard doesn't disqualify a guitar as flamenco in my opinion. For instance my No 5 setup is suitable for flamenco although it has a raised fingerboard.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 9 2010 3:05:32

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: My 7-string flamenca (in reply to Mike_Kinny)

I only talked about this particular guitar.

I agree, a raised fingerboard doesnt nescessarily mean that a guitar is flamenco or not, if the setup is right, its right, no matter how its been made

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 9 2010 3:34:43

estebanana

Posts: 9367
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: My 7-string flamenca (in reply to Mike_Kinny)

Mike,

It's a good guitar, but don't delude yourself that it's a flamenco guitar in the regular sense. It is what it is and you should be proud to have made that.

I agree with Anders that a flamenco player, and myself, would really have a hard time with that guitar because it's at odds with flamenco technique as we know it at this time.

The seventh sting is the main problem, it gets in the way of the thumb and is in the way of doing rasgueado for a dancers breaks. You can give a seven string to a flamenco player and they will be able to play it, but if they had to play for a full blown dancer in a show they would grab a six string because the seven is to cumbersome. it's not the right tool.

That said someone might take time to reinvent the the toque for seven string, but it's not likely. You're going to encounter a lot of resistance and take a lot of abuse if you push this idea before you have clout with guitarists. Are you familiar with the word 'guasa'? if not you'll learn it soon. >:)

The issue of the strings being high off the top is real. With seven strings and no place to anchor the thumb, flamenco rest stroke picado is going to be a bitch. So you've set up a guitar where a player has to over come several major obstacles on the guitar before they can even begin to solve musical problems with other people in the ensemble.

As for Manolo San Lucar playing a classical with lowered saddle. Yeah there's really no such think as a "classical" and a "flamenco". There are guitars that work better for flamenco because they have a physical / tactile quality that allows the player to play that music. Lowering the action and saddle changes the sound of the guitar and naturally diminishes the qualities people refer to as "classical ". If San Lucar found a guitar he liked he simply had the action set lower to make it playable for him. Which should be instructive to your purpose.

You made a good thing, but you need to be realistic with yourself about what you did and are doing or you're going set yourself up to get really hurt. Flamencos will be really cruel to you if you try to **** them.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 9 2010 8:56:19

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: My 7-string flamenca (in reply to Mike_Kinny)

It's a beautiful guitar, but I agree it's not suited for flamenco. The main problem I would have with it is doing golpes. Try to do a index golpe and downstroke from above the strings and you could seriously injure yourself on that.
Maybe with time it will even out and be better suited for classical?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 9 2010 9:17:09

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: My 7-string flamenca (in reply to Mike_Kinny)

I´ve said no two times to build 8 string flamencos.

The reason was (and is) that a 7 or 8 string guitar will need to be braced completely different than a 6 string because of a much higher string tension, giving a guitar with a totally different pulsation than a 6 string. As you might know now,

pulsation is IMHO the most delicate issue on a good flamenco guitar. The way it feels.. The 8 string guitars i have tried have been totally impossible to play using a normal flamenco pulsation. They just felt wrong.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 9 2010 11:50:34

estebanana

Posts: 9367
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: My 7-string flamenca (in reply to Mike_Kinny)

Anders,

I actually have to differ with you on that seven string bracing issue. You don't have to brace them differently. Use the bridge as the brace and make it longer and thinner in the wings. In my opinion and experience builders tend to over brace the guitars with more than six strings. They're afraid of the tension. It's not that big of an issue.

Seven strings don't work for flamenco because the low bass string physically gets in the way.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 9 2010 16:53:44

Gummy

Posts: 495
Joined: Nov. 27 2005
From: North Carolina, USA

RE: My 7-string flamenca (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

Seven strings don't work for flamenco because the low bass string physically gets in the way.

I'm confused. Didn't you make that 7 string Jason M played awhile back? I thought you were building him one of his own because it inspired him to try a few things. I imagine he plans to play mostly flamenco on it but I could be wrong.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 9 2010 19:39:44

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: My 7-string flamenca (in reply to estebanana)

goofed it

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 9 2010 23:35:45

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: My 7-string flamenca (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

Anders,

I actually have to differ with you on that seven string bracing issue. You don't have to brace them differently. Use the bridge as the brace and make it longer and thinner in the wings. In my opinion and experience builders tend to over brace the guitars with more than six strings. They're afraid of the tension. It's not that big of an issue.

Well I dont think that you understood my message or maybe I didnt put things very clear.
Working the tension of the top, getting the right strength and balance in the bracing system and soundboard thickness is THE most important thing on a good guitar. It takes years to get a feeling of the right compromise. If I added a 7th string to the guitars that i make now, the guitar would 100% sure be to soft. And in order to get the very right compromise on a 7string, an 8 string or a 10 string guitar, I would either need to be lucky or to build quite a few of each of them.
My knowledge from building 70+ flamenco guitars would of course help me, but very little.

If you can build a 7 string guitar using your 6 string bracing system, then maybe your 6 string guitars are over braced

Another thing is that a stiffer top would change the feel, response and voice of the guitar, so that the sound and response that I would produce would be different.
I think its great that you guys experiment, but you are doing noone (this includes yourself) a favor by saying that its easy stuff, and just put a couple of extra strings on the thing and here we go.
To balance out a flamenco guitar, getting the right feel, response, voice and sound is a very refined piece of work. Its far from just reading some books and making a box with a neck and some strings , so for now, I stay with 6 strings.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 9 2010 23:37:31

krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

RE: My 7-string flamenca (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

To balance out a flamenco guitar, getting the right feel, response, voice and sound is a very refined piece of work.

You've hit the nail on the head there Anders.
There are hundreds of amateur makers out there who can make a guitar, even good guitars, but a top class flamenco is indeed a very refined piece of work.

please keep reminding us about this!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 9 2010 23:58:15

estebanana

Posts: 9367
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: My 7-string flamenca (in reply to Mike_Kinny)

Anders,

I respect how much experience you have, but you've been jumping to conclusions about how much experience I have. I threw you a bone and you're putting me down for it, because you did not rise to the challenge of making the seven and eight string guitars. I did, and I worked it out.

I don't appreciate you saying I made errors in top thickness and bracing because frankly that's pure speculation on your part.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 10 2010 0:17:40

JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007

RE: My 7-string flamenca (in reply to estebanana)

Hey, those over-braced 6-strings/underbraced 7-strings you are making sure sound great Stephen.

What all of you don't realize and that is of the utmost importance is that Professor Diaz Chinese sweatshop made guitars are the best guitars in the world. He said so and it has to be true..... it seems that it all boils down to the 3rd string.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 10 2010 0:47:57

KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: My 7-string flamenca (in reply to Mike_Kinny)

I deleted my previous post as i have noticed diaz has uploaded some more videos relating to choosing a guitar. I was unaware he was going to make more and found the original vids, although informative, did not cover important considerations involved in choosing a guitar. Best to let him finish.

Sorry to impose on this thread. The seven string looks great by the way. If you lived near me i would be round to have a go.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 10 2010 0:57:44

JasonMcGuire

Posts: 1141
Joined: Apr. 10 2007

RE: My 7-string flamenca (in reply to KMMI77)

http://www.Bartolex.com

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 10 2010 1:08:00

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: My 7-string flamenca (in reply to Mike_Kinny)

Well,.. but to be honest... the red guitar he plays in many of his videos has an awesome metallic sound... I agree with him that this 10000 $ Guitar he didnt like so much really had some disadvantages.. If I would have to choose between his guitars and this one..also if somebody else pays the bill for me.. I would choose 10 of 10 times his guitar and not the other one...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 10 2010 3:58:14

estebanana

Posts: 9367
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: My 7-string flamenca (in reply to Gummy)

quote:

I'm confused. Didn't you make that 7 string Jason M played awhile back? I thought you were building him one of his own because it inspired him to try a few things. I imagine he plans to play mostly flamenco on it but I could be wrong.

Hi, just to clarify. I made a Seven String "Choro" style guitar for Brian Moran who plays samba and Brazilian jazz and Choro. After I finished it I asked Mc Guire to come over to the shop to take it for a test drive. He ended up playing it for two hours.
He liked it so much I let him take it home for four or five days to really understand how it worked. He and I talked about how it would and would not effect flamenco playing. As a result he ordered one, but he is slated to get a six string made of Black Acacia, a California native wood, first. He may in fact get a seven string later in the year,but we both agreed for his purpose at this time in flamenco it seemed a bit esoteric.

When I build the guitar, I consulted three of my friends who are long time builders. Gene Clark, who built eight string guitars as early as the 1960s', Mel Wong a professional builder in San Francisco, and Stewart Port who is one of the premier repairmen in the US. All of them confirmed my intuition that the bracing did not have to be beefed up significantly or radically changed. My bracing is not heavy to begin with. I have a photo of the bracing pattern if anyone cares to see it.

If there was an Mp3 supported format here you could also hear the guitar with the owner Brian Moran playing a Beatles tune.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 10 2010 9:44:32

Gummy

Posts: 495
Joined: Nov. 27 2005
From: North Carolina, USA

RE: My 7-string flamenca (in reply to estebanana)

Thanks Steven. I look fwd to hear the new 6 string.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 10 2010 9:52:13

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: My 7-string flamenca (in reply to JasonMcGuire)

quote:

What all of you don't realize and that is of the utmost importance is that Professor Diaz Chinese sweatshop made guitars are the best guitars in the world. He said so and it has to be true..... it seems that it all boils down to the 3rd string.

somebody needs to shoot him with horse tranquilizers.

man, that accent is so weird. more deestence beteeen da whjorles.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 10 2010 15:58:23

Exitao

Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada

RE: My 7-string flamenca (in reply to Mike_Kinny)

Back to the 7 string guitar:

When one adds a 7th or 8th string, how is it tuned?

What determines, or how should it be determined the tuning?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 10 2010 16:24:02

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: My 7-string flamenca (in reply to Exitao)

quote:

When one adds a 7th or 8th string, how is it tuned?

i believe the extra bass string is a B. if there's an extra treble string, it would be an A. from what i know extra strings still follow the eadgbe format. the guitar is just tuned in fouths. with the exception of G to B.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 10 2010 16:48:23

HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: My 7-string flamenca (in reply to at_leo_87)

not always, i tune my 7 string GCGCgce

Mike, that guitar looks great. I think the peghead layout is really sensible and it looks like it will be a nice straight pull thru the nut for the strings which should make them easier to keep in tune and make stretching less of an issue.

Well done.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 10 2010 17:05:35

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: My 7-string flamenca (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

Anders,

I respect how much experience you have, but you've been jumping to conclusions about how much experience I have. I threw you a bone and you're putting me down for it, because you did not rise to the challenge of making the seven and eight string guitars. I did, and I worked it out.

I don't appreciate you saying I made errors in top thickness and bracing because frankly that's pure speculation on your part.

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Stephen, I used the words "most probably" so I dont think I was speculating to deeply, so please dont take this as an attack on your person or your guitars. But if you felt that I was patronising, then I´m sorry. I hate that myself and I´ve changed the "most probably" to a "maybe"
Anyways, I mean it when I say that a 6 and 7 string guitar should be braced differently.
If I put a 7th string on my guitars, meaning adding about 15% extra tension on the top, then they would be underbraced or I would have to string them with xxlight strings.
Your choice, go ahead and build the way you want and good luck with it. I will still say no to build a 7, 8 or 10 string flamenco guitar. I prefer to concentrate on getting that little extra point out of the 6 strings. Besides, as you say, there are problems with handposition on guitars with more than 6 strings and in my ears and opinions, there are enough tones to be played on a guitar with 6 strings. (I´m talking flamenco)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2010 0:33:23