Rafaela Carrasco left me cold

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sean65

Posts: 414
Joined: Jan. 4 2010
From: London

Rafaela Carrasco left me cold

I saw the Rafaela Carrasco show at the Saddlers Wells Theatre in London last night.

If this is 'avant-garde flamenco' then it's not my thing. No doubting she's a very technically accomplished dancer but it just lacked all the ingredients that attract me to flamenco and left me cold.

Perhaps it was the pre-madonna presentation. I like to see a show where all who contribute play and 'equal' role and not just have the brightest light shining on themselves all night.

Anyone else seen any of the current shows as part of the London Flamenco Festival?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2010 1:46:22

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Rafaela Carrasco left me cold (in reply to sean65)

Hm.. sad to read that. I saw her last year in mai. Her show was more traditional than modern. The guitarist was Jesus Torres, hes very good for dance and I like his solo CD as well. I remember I sat in the first row around 3-4 meters to Torres..it was fascinating to see him playing a whole gig from that distance.. He plays fast, very long scales with i a picado.. Well,.. I paid a lot more attention to his playing than to Rafaela C.
Ah..another great moment was, the second guitarist had also a solo. A tanguillo. And when I first got in contact with flamenco in my life I got a CD of a live performance of the carrasco family. And the first track on this very old CD is a tanguillo with the 6st string tuned down to D. And the guitarist in the show of last year played exactly this tanguillo. That was surprising and fun!

So..I liked the show..coz of the music. The dance was fine I think...but I didnt watch so much.. I always focus on the most interesting thing on stage, and that was the guitarist. The dancer must be very good or very sexy that I pay attention to them.. :./ For example Rafael Campallo is one of the few who are great. He had a "dancing-battle" with his sister once on stage. That was fun to watch. Every round he danced he pulled off some really cool fancy moves that made me laugh (coz of the greatness).

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2010 4:36:46

sean65

Posts: 414
Joined: Jan. 4 2010
From: London

RE: Rafaela Carrasco left me cold (in reply to sean65)

What a difference a year makes.

Not much guitar in her show this year, more piano. She did use two guitarists but not to great effect. The female singer she had was amazing. One or two dances were only accompanied by a cello. Quite cool sounding but again....

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2010 5:01:35

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Rafaela Carrasco left me cold (in reply to sean65)

Ok.. different program.. Could also be due to the cello.. Just to see it makes me fall asleep.. ZZzzzz... Who wanna seriously learn such a boring instrument?? Or harp. Maybe as second instrument...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2010 5:05:04

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Rafaela Carrasco left me cold (in reply to sean65)

Its the same guitarrists she also had last year. I thought it was modern concept as she did 3 solo dance each only with guitar, singing and that percussion guy sitting on the ground

. At least it was new for me and pretty inspiring (avant-garde in the best meaning is a good description) . Maybe you like a more "fiesta" type of setting, but she also did that last year (maybe not this year). Cello is fine for me, piano not (if its not one of those "flamenco pianists"). But its hard to bring piano and guitar together, they just sound too different imo.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2010 5:26:40

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Rafaela Carrasco left me cold (in reply to sean65)

quote:

But its hard to bring piano and guitar together, they just sound too different imo.

really ? Than listen to Diego Amadors "Rio de los Canasteros" its all Piano together with Guitar. One of the best albums I know IMO. And "Sapin" Tomatito + Camillo... There are some compositions on it... just great and perfect fitting of Piano + guitar IMO...
How weird is that?.... You like Cello but not piano.. Im shocked Deniz!! Please in the corner with you and shame!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2010 6:02:09

chapman_g

Posts: 227
Joined: Apr. 11 2007

RE: Rafaela Carrasco left me cold (in reply to Doitsujin)

I saw her in California 2 or 3 years ago, and was very disappointed. There was no Piano then, but as far as I am concerned there should have been because that modern dance/ballet non-flamenco stuff she was doing does not require any driving Marote rasgueado or any kind of real strong flamenco guitar playing, and would be better served with a Piano and strings and called something else other than flamenco

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2010 6:09:22

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Rafaela Carrasco left me cold (in reply to Doitsujin)

I only listened to "Piano Jondo" by Amador and there only the tracks without guitar were appealing for me, but i am currently listening to your recommendation!
@chapman: i agree, it is a very sophisticated program she has and might not be appealing to everybody who likes flamenco, for whatever it is we like about flamenco.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2010 6:25:20

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Rafaela Carrasco left me cold (in reply to chapman_g)

quote:

Rafaela Carrasco

wow what a surrprise...i have never seen her perform outside that flamenco part in the saura movie many years ago...but its surrprising i would had assumed judging by that she was one of those traditional dancers...

who else have you guys seen that surrprised you and turned out to be something else than what u expected ?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2010 6:28:52

chapman_g

Posts: 227
Joined: Apr. 11 2007

RE: Rafaela Carrasco left me cold (in reply to Florian)

Well, Gerardo Nunez recorded music is very good, but this guy was an absolute monster live. He did a live show with his Trio, Jesus Mendez, and Carmen Cortes, and it was insanely good and very flamenco, I mean this guy was playing traditional and modern and everything in between, but with a rhythmic drive and tight as hell. And you had to be glued to what was going on the whole concert look away for a moment and you might miss something great. This was in 2005 but it is one of my top 3 live flamenco concert shows. I did not know it was going to be that good. After that, listening to his CD's really pale in comparison to the show he puts on live.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2010 6:42:21

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Rafaela Carrasco left me cold (in reply to chapman_g)

quote:

Well, Gerardo Nunez recorded music is very good, but this guy was an absolute monster live. He did a live show with his Trio, Jesus Mendez, and Carmen Cortes, and it was insanely good and very flamenco, I mean this guy was playing traditional and modern and everything in between, but with a rhythmic drive and tight as hell. And you had to be glued to what was going on the whole concert look away for a moment and you might miss something great. This was in 2005 but it is one of my top 3 live flamenco concert shows. I did not know it was going to be that good. After that, listening to his CD's really pale in comparison to the show he puts on live.

thanks for sharing that man...yeah i heard something to that effect before...what a greate thing to be able to say....i am better live then my studio recording

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2010 7:11:19

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Rafaela Carrasco left me cold (in reply to chapman_g)

quote:

Well, Gerardo Nunez recorded music is very good, but this guy was an absolute monster live. He did a live show with his Trio, Jesus Mendez, and Carmen Cortes, and it was insanely good and very flamenco, I mean this guy was playing traditional and modern and everything in between, but with a rhythmic drive and tight as hell.

Yeah, I got the same impression too.
His recorded stuff is very intricate and quite cerebral, but the guy can play mean and dirty like the best of 'em, with an amazing rhythmic drive and great improvised feel.
"You can take the boy out of Jerez, but not Jerez out of the boy", was the thought running through my head at the time!
Impressive performer and Carmen Cortes is dynamite.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2010 7:24:58

sean65

Posts: 414
Joined: Jan. 4 2010
From: London

RE: Rafaela Carrasco left me cold (in reply to sean65)

I forgot to mention,

Rafaela started the show under a spot light that would flash on every now and then to show her spinning etc...She then left the stage and the lighting showed what looked like four female dancers in tradition dress's.

But as the lights were turned up it turned out to be four male dancers in dress's - my girlfriend (who's Spanish) commented that if they were in Sevilla, the crowd would have burned the house down...lol

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2010 7:44:47

veet

Posts: 231
Joined: Nov. 29 2004
From: L.A.

RE: Rafaela Carrasco left me cold (in reply to Florian)

quote:

have never seen her perform outside that flamenco part in the saura movie many years ago

I think you're confusing her with Manuela Carrasco, who danced por solea sung by Jose Merce in that movie. Completely different person, generation, physique and style.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2010 8:07:22

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Rafaela Carrasco left me cold (in reply to veet)

sh*t you right...i am too...

where else has rafaela carrasco been ? any dvds ?

i am youtubing her

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2010 8:12:01

veet

Posts: 231
Joined: Nov. 29 2004
From: L.A.

RE: Rafaela Carrasco left me cold (in reply to sean65)

quote:

four male dancers in dress's

That's been in her show for many years now, I think it was 6 or 7 years ago in Jerez I saw her 3 guys in bata de cola dancing a farruca. Got to hand it to them, ask any woman how difficult it is to maneuver that huge dress on stage, on top of a super-macho farruca piece to boot. It was a hoot.

She's very capable, smart, and inventive, but like the first poster said, seems kind of emotionally reserved and leaves me a bit cold.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2010 8:17:06

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Rafaela Carrasco left me cold (in reply to sean65)

man she is smooth ! OLEEEEEEE

thats some nice nice moves...this video and those moves absolute class all the way...il take any chance and sitt trough any crap at the hope to get 1 minute of that...

sorry she decided to get too avantguard on your show

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2010 8:17:12

orsonw

Posts: 1943
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Rafaela Carrasco left me cold (in reply to sean65)

To be fair Rafaela Carrasco's show wasn't sold as a pure flamenco show it was advertised as using the songs of Lorca.

The London Flamenco festival has become narrower in the audience it markets towards. For example it's all dance- no cante or guitar shows these days.
You will notice that the same artists appear each year. I have been told this is due to the promoter who only brings his artists, it's not very representative of all the best flamenco.
It used to be more diverse with fringe shows. I don't go because I know I'm not who it's aimed at.

I second the opinion on Gerardo Nunez live. His recordings are nothing compared to him live; he is amazingly powerful. I don't often listen to his recordings but I wouldn't miss a chance to see him perform.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2010 8:54:42

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Rafaela Carrasco left me cold (in reply to orsonw)

quote:

The London Flamenco festival has become narrower in the audience it markets towards. For example it's all dance- no cante or guitar shows these days.

lets be honest its the audience that determines that...

this festivals need people to go in and to make the money to be able to cover their expenses etc..they need to book acts that the majority will go in and see...no good having the most flamenco flamencos if noone will go see

majority of people dont understand what the cante is about, its very different to anything they are used too...dont understand the story ( a dancer atleast gives it some kind of meaning to those who dont speak the language)

outside spain...u need the dancers...u need something for everyone ...thats visually entertaining to the general public, it appeals to a wider number of people... who arent necesarely affitionados or even greate listeners of flamenco cante...

even a whole concert of flamenco guitar by itself its very risky...imo...its good to have variety and appeal to everyone...

but within a dance show you get all of that...the guitar the cante AND most importantly its visualy stimulating for the majority who dont know or dont care just wanna be entertained etc...

if i was a festival promoter outside spain i would probably do exactly the same...

I have seen plenty of festivals around australia go broke cause the promoter hired what he liked instead of thinking smart and think about what would the Majority of people come out to see...and the answer is Shows...not artists...IMO...not when it comes to flamenco...

except for a handfull of flamenco affitionados and students noone will go and watch poveda sing for an 1:30 minutes ...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2010 9:15:50

orsonw

Posts: 1943
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Rafaela Carrasco left me cold (in reply to Florian)

quote:

lets be honest its the audience that determines that...

Yes this is true. It's a slippery slope down to FakemencoTM

However there used to be cante in the main theatre and I remember these shows also sold well.
It was also great when they brought lesser known singers for smaller shows not in the main theatre.

I think they've finally just given up on anything other than dance, which is a shame for me! Luckily Spain is not so far and also there are quite often other flamenco events in London with Spanish artists.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2010 9:27:44

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Rafaela Carrasco left me cold (in reply to orsonw)

quote:

Yes this is true. It's a slippery slope down to FakemencoTM

lol

i dont think so...its allways been there, its just music busines...allways about money...festivals are figthing to get funding and remain..and to do that they have to get alot of interest from the public in that city or country..

u need acts that people will come and see...now i am assuming they not stupid...would have looked at figures and numbers

outside spain a flamenco show with dancers in it is much safer then a solo singer or guitarist (with a few exceptions) but il let you guys speak for your own contries...i am speaking for here atleast

wich solo cante concert sold well ?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2010 9:37:08

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Rafaela Carrasco left me cold (in reply to Florian)

quote:

except for a handfull of flamenco affitionados and students noone will go and watch poveda sing for an 1:30 minutes ...

quote:

Yes this is true. It's a slippery slope down to FakemencoTM

You are both right IMO.

In my experience anyway, folks like Paco Peña and later Juan Martin rose to fame because of the public interest in Manitas de Plata, who had been televised on BBC TV and covered in the newspapers in the mid-60's.

Also at that time it was the Beatles/Hippy/Expand-Your-Mind period, where people were open to all sorts of different music and stuff.

I even went to a sold-out Ravi Shankar concert myself, where despite a request and lecture from the maestro himself that Indian Classical music was not intended to be listened to "stoned".....

When the lights went out, there were all these little orange glows getting passed around all over the place.

I seriously think both these guys would find it hard to get well paid gigs in todays climate if it were not for their reputation they made in the 60's 70's.

That's why I always say.."Keep it as a hobby".

As a pro in the UK anyway, you are gonna find it hard to make ends meet playing Flamenco Puro unless you save that for small specialist gigs which just cover your expenses....and get a good Fakemenco act together to pay the bills.

Just the reality of life I'm afraid.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2010 10:12:03

orsonw

Posts: 1943
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Rafaela Carrasco left me cold (in reply to Florian)

Enrique Morente one year Estrella Morente another year both full in the main theatre. They also used to have fringe shows in a smaller theatre, I remember Marina Heredia.

It's easy to forget here on the foro that we're a minority, Flamenco puro is a specialist thing.

I remember going to see Paco de Lucia in London and thinking it was ridiculous that my rock band would have the same or more people at a show than he had.

Because flamenco hits me so hard I used to not understand why it left other people cold but that's just how it is.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2010 10:23:12

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Rafaela Carrasco left me cold (in reply to orsonw)

quote:

As a pro in the UK anyway, you are gonna find it hard to make ends meet playing Flamenco Puro unless you save that for small specialist gigs which just cover your expenses....and get a good Fakemenco act together to pay the bills.

Just the reality of life I'm afraid.

cheers,

Ron

nice encouraging words

I am kidding...i know exactly what u saying ...and i am not gonna say u right...but you are defenetly not wrong but everyone must be allowed to dream...no point doing anything unles doing it all the way imo...but i understand that some have no choice , famillies , need to pay the bills...however if i wasent allowed to atleast dream id die.....and if i needed to sitt and accept certain things ..i just wouldnt do it...so while they are defenetlly posible i dont accept or will ever setlle for any of them

things change.. and the fact that we now stand here playing and liking flamenco outside spain and some of us are even lucky to have a bitt of a flamenco scene, schools, ...it means someone before us created something and didnt accept any of this either making it possible for us...its always going to be a uphill struglle ...but its one i am fortunate and proud to be in..wouldnt have it anyother way

and it dosent mean u cant slowly introduce flamenco puro and serve it to them in a way that they have no idea that they are getting it

...and flamenco is flamenco...as long as it is flamenco , all flamenco is pure

if i need to dress flamenco dancers in designer catwalk clothes to expose it to more or new audiences i dont care....il do it...the main mesage is getting across...flamenco is not a dress or a letra or a single peticular style of traditional singing or playing...

u dont have to sell out but u can be creative and try to please whomever is standing in front of you too ...in a way that they can relate and it acctualy pleases them

its not their fault they dont know about flamenco...its not flamencos fault that in its purest form dosent always appeal to untrained audiences from different background...and its not your fault that you love flamenco but u live in a different place ....trying to take all this in and be smart enough to judge your audience and create a situation for your own enviorment not by spanish audiences or dvd audiences and then get down that they dont get it ...u can slowly educate and entertain at the same time...

but u need to know how to adapt and recognise the reality of where u are...need to know when to push, when to pull and when to stand still

nothing is written in stone and nothing is imposible ...just have to be creative...and sometimes choose brain over heart

flamenco is flamenco because its adapted...gipsy music is gypsy music because its adapted to its enviorement and because its survived in the toughest of enviorements

the no1 rule since day one in evolution ..adapt or eventually die...simple

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2010 10:30:43

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Rafaela Carrasco left me cold (in reply to Florian)

quote:

the no1 rule since day one in evolution ..adapt or eventually die...simple

Definitely...I'd agree Florian.

When Flamenco interest started to slump a bit here after the initial interest, Paco Peña's record company paid him to release an album of Spanishy Easy Listening Stuff with a backing band of guys in wide-brimmed hats, including songs like "Yellow Bird", "La Bamba" and "Tico-Tico" etc etc...

Of course he did it because he wasn't daft and knew that it wouldn't take away from what he already knew of Flamenco Puro...but if that's what they want.......

(I see the album is now withdrawn and vanished without a trace..

)

Paco was a pragmatist as well as being a very sincere and dedicated Flamenco.

cheers,

Ron

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2010 11:50:09

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Rafaela Carrasco left me cold (in reply to sean65)

quote:

Of course he did it

As I assumed in another thread.. Its all bout business.

Isnt it?

By the way I´ll see Rafaela Carrasco again this year! Also with Jesus Torres. I hope they dont perform exactly the same show as I saw before....

I am happily waiting!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2010 12:14:13

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Rafaela Carrasco left me cold (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

When Flamenco interest started to slump a bit here after the initial interest, Paco Peña's record company paid him to release an album of Spanishy Easy Listening Stuff with a backing band of guys in wide-brimmed hats, including songs like "Yellow Bird", "La Bamba" and "Tico-Tico" etc etc...

lol wow are you serious ? still trying to figure out if you joking or this is a fact

and look how many careers Paco Pena has launched in flamenco and how much hes done for flamenco outside Spain...i think he was the first that brang the real thing here to Australia...

i agree...theres a difference between beeing dedicated to the art and commited but also beeing smart enough to see oportunities and take them...an oportunity is something that leads to something else

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2010 13:48:22

Ricardo

Posts: 14897
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Rafaela Carrasco left me cold (in reply to Florian)

quote:

ho else have you guys seen that surrprised you and turned out to be something else than what u expected ?

Last year Farruco was accompanied by Antonio Rey on guitar. I have is solo CD and I like some of it a lot, and some of it not at all. Well I was surprised by how he played because he played about 99% Paco de Lucia material when not just strumming for the cante and baile, and even then his strumming was not like his modern style, it too was totally Pacoish...

He even played a note for note version of Zyrab, complete with blazing picado....only his improvisations were a bit different. It was a shock for me honeslty.

Now i am not so surprised when I saw David Cerreduela playing Paco standards at Casa Patas on youtuvbe....these guy probably hang out and play paco stuff all day together. They might not even like their own music.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2010 14:01:07

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Rafaela Carrasco left me cold (in reply to sean65)

quote:

I saw David Cerreduela playing Paco standards at Casa Patas on youtuvbe....these guy probably hang out and play paco stuff all day together. They might not even like their own music.

cereduela loves Paco ...his new album had just came out when i saw him and he was raving about it...had allready transcribed some stuff and played it and keeped saying genius..

and i love cereduela's compositions...

Everyone needs someone to look up too

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2010 14:06:52

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Rafaela Carrasco left me cold (in reply to Florian)

quote:

lol wow are you serious ? still trying to figure out if you joking or this is a fact

Yeah Flo...I'm serious.

Paco, like a few Spanish guys I've known, had a taste for the finer things in life (whether they could really afford it or not) and even when he was just starting out as a young guy, had a W1 home address in Central London.
Apartments there cost mucho dinero to rent!

So I'm sure he wasn't going to turn down an offer to make some dough.
Anyway...he knew who he was himself so I'm sure it didn't worry him as a young guy trying to make a career in a foreign country.

He was always very driven in his quest to spread the Gospel and educate audiences of what real Flamenco was about.
In fact some of his early concerts were like mini-lecture tours with demonstrations on the guitar.
He definitely was a pioneer in dispelling the "picture postcard" view of Flamenco that was prevalent in Britain and took every opportunity on radio or tv etc to present it as a serious art form.

I have mucho respect for him.

Of course, as with anything in life, he was in the right place at the right time, with the big social change here and interest in other cultures, plus a craze of guitar players (a legacy of the Beatles and other early British bands), which meant plenty TV exposure etc as the producers had the same mindset.

In fact at one point, you could mention " Flamenco guitar" and "Paco Peña" to a lot of ordinary folk in the street and they'd pause and say " Oh Yeah....I think I know who you mean....is that the guy who plays that amazing Spanish guitar stuff on the Parkinson show etc?"

That's pretty good recognition!

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 22 2010 1:10:47