Foro Flamenco


Posts Since Last Visit | Advanced Search | Home | Register | Login

Today's Posts | Inbox | Profile | Our Rules | Contact Admin | Log Out



Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.





Garcia Lorca?   You are logged in as Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >>Discussions >>General >> Page: [1]
Login
Message<< Newer Topic  Older Topic >>
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

Garcia Lorca? 
I'm sure i read somewhere, that contrary to the general high regard that Garcia Lorca is held in in the flamenco world (1922 cante competition, poems and writings about flamenco and duende etc., recordings of his poetry set to music etc.), there are some who consider that he was a middle class intellectual who didn't really know much about the "real" flamenco, who projected his poetic fantasies onto flamenco, and who contributed to stereotypes of gypsies....

does anyone here know anything about this? can anyone confirm or deny that this is a view held by some flamencos? i'm sure i read it somewhere in an article or interview online and i need to reference it somehow....
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 21 2009 14:52:49
 
NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
 

RE: Garcia Lorca? (in reply to mark indigo) 
Hi Mark,

Can't speak for everyone, and I haven't read everything that García Lorca wrote, but what I have read didn't contain any specific information on flamenco. He dedicated a few short pieces to some famous artists like Juan Breva, Pastora and others, and I think he wrote a few others dedicated to styles like soleá, but none of them follow the corresponding meter (eight syllables in three or four lines of verse, for example). I may be wrong, but I don't think any of his poetry follows any kind of flamenco meter.

I think the general consensus is that Federico was a rich kid who appreciated flamenco and defended it (played a selection of recordings at high-society gatherings in an attempt to show people how great flamenco is) but had only a romantic notion of it. He wrote a famous essay on duende which I haven't read, but I've never come across any references or quotes that might indicate a deep understanding of or sense of participation in the creative process of flamenco. If he had written something like that, I think I would have seen a reference to it by now.

My impression of Federico pretty much coincides with the description in your message.

quote:

can anyone confirm or deny that this is a view held by some flamencos? i'm sure i read it somewhere in an article or interview online and i need to reference it somehow....


Yeah, I can confirm that, but I can't specify anything that's in print, if that's what you're after. Maybe in the texts of the Pastora anthology.

_____________________________

Be here now.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 22 2009 3:38:13
 
Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Garcia Lorca? (in reply to mark indigo) 
Well its certainly fair to say that Lorca himself wasn't a Flamenco. Middle class intellectual might be better description and certainly a large proportion of his work was highly critical of the seculist, patriarchal, fascism within Spanish society of that time.

I agree with Norman though that he had a deep love of flamenco and I believe a deep understanding of it. His work was highly influenced by flamenco, especially the cante jondo which must have struck his poetic sensibilities very highly. In turn these poems have later influenced flamenco so his poetry which echoed early flamenco cante now influence modern flamenco.

Dont forget Lorca also wrote music in his plays that were influenced on themes at that time such as lullabies and songs of the romeria.

Lorca gave many lectures on flamenco. He tried to educate people that this was an art worth saving. In the book "Cante Jondo and other prose" we learn that
"In order to save cante Jondo from commercial adulteration and extinction, Lorca and Manuel de Falla organised an unprecedented amateur contest at the alhambra in june 1922. Lorca gave the lecture (Importancia historica y artistica del primativo canto andaluz llamando cante jondo) to awaken public interest."

In this lecture Lorca displays a high level of understanding of both the nature and history of flamenco
"Gentlemen, the artistic treasure of an entire race is passing into oblivion. Each day....old men carry to the grave priceless treasures of past generations..."

"the word Caña much resembles the word "gannia" , which is the arabic word for song"

He then spends a further 18 pages of text exploring the roots of flamenco from the cante jondo with great insight.

According to the 12 page lecture "play and theory of the Duende" the word comes from "duen de casa" (lord of the house) which is a spanish household spirit fond of hiding things, breaking dishes, causing noise etc. what we would call a Gremlin! He spends much time in this discussing great flamenco artists of that day.

If is works did contribute to sterotyping gypsies I believe it was probably not intended to be factual but poetic. In his lecture the "romancero gitano" (gypsy ballads) Lorca defends his work by saying things such as
" the typical ballad has always been a narration.....from the first lines we note that myth is mixed with what we call the "realistic" element. But in fact this "realism" touches the plane of magic it becomes as mysterious and and indecipherable as the andalucian soul"

Anyway this is a big subject but I suggest you do read Lorcas lectures on cante jondo. P

_____________________________

Follow my blog http://pimientito.wordpress.com/

"Ceremonial" by Mark Shurey "Pimientito". CD and digital download vailable on Amazon and
CDbaby. http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/markshurey
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 22 2009 8:00:25
 
Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Garcia Lorca? (in reply to Pimientito) 
You can read the whole cante jondo here

http://tkline.pgcc.net/klineasdeepsong.htm

the other lectures are here

http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Spanish/Lorcahome.htm

_____________________________

Follow my blog http://pimientito.wordpress.com/

"Ceremonial" by Mark Shurey "Pimientito". CD and digital download vailable on Amazon and
CDbaby. http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/markshurey
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 22 2009 8:25:47
 
edguerin

Posts: 1590
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: Garcia Lorca? (in reply to mark indigo) 
In "Zur Geschichte des Flamenco", Flamenco gitano-andaluz , C. Schreiner (ed), 1988, Frankfurt a. M. : Fischer, 48 ff
Ms M. Papenbrok states that by 1922 flamenco was in a state of decline and decadence.
The circle of intellectuals around Federico Garcia Lorca and Manuel de Falla wanted to revive public interest, which was their motivation for the Concurso.
However they mistakenly believed flamenco to be a domain of all of the Adalusian people, so that only amateurs were accepted, thus excluding many competent singers. (Most of the good singers of the time being professionals or semi-pros). The level of the competition thus was rather mediocre, with few exceptions. Disappointed, de Falla lost interest...

_____________________________

Ed

El aficionado solitario
Alemania
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 22 2009 9:33:46
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Garcia Lorca? (in reply to edguerin) 
thanks for your responses, i found the article i read at least some of this in originally, Flamenco International Vol 1 No 2, an article by Paco Sevilla on duende.... he qotes Manolo Huelva saying Lorca got the idea of duende from Manuel Torre, and elaborated on it considerably.... I'll try to attach a scan of the relevant page.... but i'm sure i read some more in this vein online as well.

it says file too large - scan of one page is 2.67MB - no idea how to reduce this

edit; i tried resizing and i think it is working, i just hope it is readable

Attachment (1)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 22 2009 13:38:39
 
NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
 

RE: Garcia Lorca? (in reply to mark indigo) 
Complete works (includes annoying background music):

http://www.tinet.cat/~picl/libros/glorca/gl000000.htm

_____________________________

Be here now.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 22 2009 15:00:19
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Garcia Lorca? (in reply to NormanKliman) 
thanks again for links, i had read the duende lecture/essay, and now also the cante jondo one as well. i have read varying amounts of his poetry (admittedly in translation/parallel text) over the years.

anyone got any references for any other writing about lorca (rather than by lorca) in relation to flamenco? i have done a net search and come up with a few things, i'm sure i've read some interviews with flamenco's on flamenco-world or somewhere about this.... i'm just trying to remember where i got some of these crazy ideas from, surely i haven't just made them up?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 26 2009 3:08:27
Page:   [1]
All Forums >>Discussions >>General >> Page: [1]
Jump to:

New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET

9.400177E-02 secs.