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Posts: 302
Joined: May 27 2005
From: Zürich, Switzerland
chladni patterns
Hi
I have seen the below attached video by Benno Streu concerning plate tuning.
Unfortunately the video was cut and i think they have cut the most important part of the interview.
Benno Streu talks about chladni patterns and kind of a cry (harmonic) that appears if the top is striked with the fingers on a well tuned soundboard. He talks about F# to be the prefered frequence for a guitar soundboard in a good guitar.
What he explains seems to be interesting to me, but i just can't make any useful conclusions for my own building out of it.
O.k. i know there are different patterns that appear on certain frequencies on the soundboard. I have read that as from a certain frequency they tend to be symetrical on guitars with symetrical bracing and assymetrical on guitars with assymetrical bracing. O.k. but now, so what?????
In order to make a use of this theory or at least have a chance to experiment with it one must know what to look for. So the question remains. What should i look for when tuning (lets say a flamenco guitar) with the use of chladni patterns?
Does anybody have experience with that?
I know this topic is often a matter of dispute within luthiers and there are different opinions about that. Some might consider this to be part of the left brain lutherie approach. Well this might be true but Benno Streu did not use any laboratory equipment to make his analysis as you might have noticed in the video. It's all about listening and feeling and that's what we admire in Antonio de Torres. I still believe that the luthier must understand the interaction of frequencies in his instruments in order to build a guitar with a certain sound quality. How to get there is a matter of doctrines, personal believes and experince.
I tried the swiping the face of the guitar thing... I'm not really sure what i found... or if it is relevant... or what lol.
I'm not sure if he was advocating that certain parts of the face should vibrate with certain frequencies or that it should operate as one large cell and vibrate the whole face at every frequency............
Benno Streu speaks in german and on top he speaks a "schwäbisch dialect", so there is no much chance for english speaking people to understand in detail what he was talking about.
He said that the chladni patterns devide the soundboard into four parts, six parts, etc.
The higher the tone of the string the more "vibrating islands" (nodes) appear on the soundboard. They must be placed absolutely symetrically across the soundboard.
The harmonics that he demonstrated appear if the guitar is well tuned, so the presence of these harmonics indicate that the basic tuning of the guitar is correct.
I have checked my guitars and i had troubles to find these harmonics. However i will take this theory into account when building the next guitar.
Wow, very neat stuff. I can get my good guitar to scream a little bit on an E on the 4th string, but my cheapo Japanese factory made classical guitar from the 70s actually does it on a few notes on the 3rd string
If I want my guitar to scream though all I have to do is play some Gypsy Kings stuff or repeat a finger in picado
Here is a link to a video we released last month. Much of the info on the DVD can be applied to classical, or flamenco soundboards easily. Here is a clip on tuning the plate using the Chladni patterns.
Here is a link to a video we released last month. Much of the info on the DVD can be applied to classical, or flamenco soundboards easily. Here is a clip on tuning the plate using the Chladni patterns.
This is essentially what I've been doing for the past 25 + years on my classical and flamenco guitars but with a fraction of wood removal, more like polishing techniques than actual wood removal.
Once there is a basic design that works well from the master guitar builders, then it is but a matter of tweaking the tone to it maximun advantage to get everything into complete harmony.
If certain nuance is desired, then I tune the area out of sink just a little to provide certain voicing; character to the notes. This is how I get hollow basses and earthy trebles that bend easy and sing. The mid range seems to be ideal for projection purpose, and it takes very little tuning to reach its maximum range without going outside the requency necessary for good projection.
I do this through the sound hole but I'm getting tired of it, as my left arm is affected with it. All of this is done by intuition, not any mechanical devices. Tone is not only important but the way the guitar articulates with the right and left hand, along with top timber function that does not break down or bounce but creates a snapping sensation with the strings. This helps rasgeado and picado pull through.
The difference with this method is that the majority of the tuning of braces is done while the top is free. The modes are the gauge that allow you to judge your progress. There is always the opportunity to shave braces after the assembly, but this method can give you a nice head start. Alan makes a variety of instruments, steel strings, nylon string guitars and violins. He has had a good deal of experience with this ongoing experiment which has yielded some very nice sounding instruments.
The difference with this method is that the majority of the tuning of braces is done while the top is free. The modes are the gauge that allow you to judge your progress. There is always the opportunity to shave braces after the assembly, but this method can give you a nice head start. Alan makes a variety of instruments, steel strings, nylon string guitars and violins. He has had a good deal of experience with this ongoing experiment which has yielded some very nice sounding instruments.
Cheers
I will probably try and purchase Al's DVD and see for my self how it works. My son, the electronics genius might be able to guide me through it since he knows quite a bit about these things.
I've always admired Al's work but I've never managed to do it his way. I hope to improve my work, and this may give me some clues how I can do it without having to work through the sound hole. My way is pretty accurate not not easy on my arm.
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