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How fast is fast enough?   You are logged in as Guest
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Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
 

How fast is fast enough? 
Ok here's something *slightly* more tangible and probably less controversial than bulerias compas

IMO, many flamenco techniques require a certain speed in order to 'work'. That is to say, if you do them too slow, it will sound like you are practicing (which is fine if you are of course). But what are the necessary speeds you need to achieve in order to play reasonably competently?

Tremolo is a good example. Play it too slow, and the illusion of a continuous melody line is lost.

Now classical guitarists would say that you need to get the classical PAMI tremolo up to 140+ bpm (one cycle of PAMI per beat) in order for it to be functional. There have been several threads on this on various CG groups, and most people would agree that Tarrega's tremolo study RDLA is best played at around this speed - the various editions of the score confirm this.

What about the conventional five note flamenco tremolo then? Where's the 'pass mark'? Following the math of the CG trem, 140 beats X 4 notes per beat gives us 560 notes per minute. Now if we want to play the same number of notes with our flamenco tremolo , then divide by five (PIAMI) to give 112.
With me so far? What I am saying is set you metronome to 112 and play PIAMI along to it - what do you reckon? Fast enough to work?

Now Mike's favourite subject, fast picado
Interestingly there is a kind of consensus from other styles on the subject of fast, single line, scale-based passages. In both classical guitar and in the world of rock/metal (shredding), people talk of a speed of around 160bpm. In other words, if you can play extended scale passages in sixteenths at this speed, then you would be able to comfortably handle just about anything in the CG repertoire that has fast runs, and if you are a rock fan, this is easily fast enough to impress your friends with your shredding What do you guys reckon, then, is 160 is a reasonable 'pass mark' for fast picado?

Alzapua is another good one which I think has to be plays at a certain speed to get that distinctive alzapua sound, anything less is just common or garden pulgar lines. But thats enough from me for now, maybe someone else can suggest at what speed alzapua becomes reasonably functional.

Anyhow, interested in your thoughts on the above.

Jon
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 14 2004 9:57:25
 
Escribano

Posts: 6417
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: How fast is fast enough? (in reply to Jon Boyes) 
I have heard fast continous PIAMI tremeloes and fast non-continuous PIAMI tremeloes that sort of trill but with a discernable gap as the fingers "reload" played in a slowish palos such as soleares.

For me, it is a matter of style, as in all things e.g. Greece v. Portugal in Euro 2004 football final, neither side played "proper" football as there is no such thing. Greece could probably defend against Brazil, but could they win? Maybe.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 14 2004 12:34:39
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: How fast is fast enough? (in reply to Jon Boyes) 
It seems the flamenco tremolo is a little lopsided and doesn't need much speed. Anyways, it's more of a mannerism than an effect, it seems to work at lower speeds. As far as picado, you need 150 or so to handle alegrias, to really do bulerias you might need 180 or so. In any case to play Paco you might need to get up to 185...his run in Barrio La Vina for example.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 14 2004 15:20:28
 
duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: How fast is fast enough? (in reply to Miguel de Maria) 
Paco´s pices are dumb!! ..you go along... learnt it ...and when you know the enitre pice there´s just one problem....HIS PICADO!! ..it ruins it all!!

I think we should work every technique up to the highest speed possible.
Within our own limitations. Did anybody understand what i just said?!??

Henrik
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 14 2004 17:56:17
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: How fast is fast enough? (in reply to Jon Boyes) 
It's true..you're listening to a Paco piece, thinking "this is beautiful, I'd like to add this to my repertoire." Then all of a sudden... BAKAKAKAKAKKAKKAKAKAKK! Scratch that one off the list. I guess it's true...you don't have to play the picado. But...but...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 14 2004 18:24:12
 
duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: How fast is fast enough? (in reply to Miguel de Maria) 
yup! ..yup!...but...but..
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 14 2004 18:29:00
 
Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
 

RE: How fast is fast enough? (in reply to Miguel de Maria) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria

It seems the flamenco tremolo is a little lopsided and doesn't need much speed.


But how much, thats the question.. go on Mike, commit yourself

I don't think its helpful to use Paco as a yardstick for anything, BTW. There are many well known players who simply cannot approach his speeds (not just picado).

Jon
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 15 2004 7:44:05
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: How fast is fast enough? (in reply to Jon Boyes) 
Jon, I really don't think speed in tremolo is a difficulty at all. Once you get the technique down, it's just a simple fluttering of fingers. I think flamenco tremolo can be effectively executed at basically any speed. That's because I don't think it is a true tremolo...it's almost more like the anacrusis arpeggios used before beats on the solea--just an effect. Now if you want to hear true flamenco tremolo, listen to Manolo Sanlucar's 9 (?) hit tremolo on Oracion. That is the most beautiful thing I think I have ever heard. I think that goes fairly rapidly.

By the way, I just read on the classical board that some people claim Segovia played tremolo p i m i.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 15 2004 15:49:10
 
Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
 

RE: How fast is fast enough? (in reply to Miguel de Maria) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria
I think flamenco tremolo can be effectively executed at basically any speed. That's because I don't think it is a true tremolo...it's almost more like the anacrusis arpeggios used before beats on the solea


Well thats more of an ornament, and not quite what I meant. There are plenty of players that play long, flowing falsetas where the tremolo is smooth and follows a melodic line - check out Vicente Amigo, Moraito etc for some really nice tremolo passages. Paco Penas tremolo is dead even also.

I read that post about Segovia, the subject came up a while back on RMCG where it was noted that PIMI was basically ONE way in which he did tremolo, but not necessarily the only way. Prior to my 'injury', I used to get PIMI working really well also, better than my PAMI in fact.

Jon
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 16 2004 12:25:04
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