Accompanyment theory

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John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

Accompanyment theory

Hey guys,

I just recently was dumbfounded when I stared hearing a huge list of terms for flamenco dance communication with guitarists and singers ... for example there's a term for a displante that lets a guitarist know to stop playing which differs from one which allows him to keep playing.

I always though after so many years of seeing things you have just built up enough knowledge to be able to accompany. Now of course a lot of the accompanyment is done using intuition, experience and feeling for what's coming, still I feel ... no I KNOW there's so much I could train if I just knew some basic facts that I can't seem to get just with experience.

How do I know which signs are traditional and which are special for a certain choreography? How do I know if a dancer leads into an escobilla or if I should start first? How do I know to be prepared for a silencio in a palo before an escobilla? How does the singer know when to sing and how do I know how to rehearse this part when the singer usually only comes to the final rehearsal? Sometimes before a verse the dancer moves her arm here, there, opens a fan, leans back, steps forward - I just don't see some patterns.

Has there never been ANY documentation made about this stuff? No books, lexicons with terms, anything of the sort, just to clear some of the haze??

_____________________________

Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 15 2008 3:15:45

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Accompanyment theory (in reply to John O.)

quote:

How do I know which signs are traditional and which are special for a certain choreography?

well to be safest, u have to talk to your dancer..but if anything is special choreography she will probably inform you before hand and tell you to watch out for it..

quote:

How do I know if a dancer leads into an escobilla or if I should start first?

unles otherwise discussed u should always let the dancer start and lead as she can set the speed she is comfortable with..and never go in straight away...eg. in alegrias escobila go in on 456...and always remain a split of a second behind them as to be certain u not controling the speed and its them

quote:

How do I know to be prepared for a silencio in a palo before an escobilla?

U dont, expecially if u never seen the choreography before ...depends on the choreography, she will normaly let you know before hand if she/he is gonna do one or ask..The choreography is made by her or someone else u have absolute no way of knowing if shes going to do a silencio or not..i have seen just as many alegrias with silencios as i have seen without..expecially if its a group alegrias..

quote:

How does the singer know when to sing and how do I know how to rehearse this part when the singer usually only comes to the final rehearsal?

theres certain llamadas that bring a singer in during letras wich generally are in the same place but choreographies this days are so different and personalised that to be safe everything is discused before hand and singer is informed where to come in..( pay attention once and find some sign that you will remember as a reference to yourself and use that or ask them to do it without u and do palmas and really pay attention to everything ..u mught see more cause u not preocupied with the guitar too)

after u do a certain palo for a while u get a general feel of where a letra should be..but even then its prediscussed and preogranised so its not left up to chance or an individuals experience..

really it should be your dancers job to inform you of all this things

and thats how it is with singers lol..u have to get used to it ...get friends with him /her ask them if u can go visit them at theyr house and practice a litlle for yourself...or use cds etc. or bring a recording device to rehersal and record everything...listen to it a million times..( thats probably the best advice for you)Solo Compas.use whatever resources u can find..

quote:

Sometimes before a verse the dancer moves her arm here, there, opens a fan, leans back, steps forward - I just don't see some patterns.

its not so much that ..its the place in the choreography where the letra has been predecided..thats not the Sign but perhaps shes using that as a reference as its different from everything else in the dance...

all this things are natural man..u feel overwhelmed cause if u the new guy it seems like everyone knows what they doing except u but really all this things are prediscused and prearanged...really they should inform u of all this things..if u the only guitarist u shouldnt have to ask...

make some time and ask the dancers question, singer question...write some things down till u memorize it if u need to, use the technology u have available this days, record everything etc..

communication is the key for all those things..the most experienced accompanist in the world couldnt tell you some of the things u are asking only the people involved with the choreography u are acompanying..thats those around u..Dacer is the best to ask

theres no book as far as I know or i am sure there is stuff out there but again it would have to be very general

good luck buddy

dont worry, its natural lol..and dont be afraid to disscus and ask, it will not make u look inexperienced as its normal for someone who has not seen a choreography before to ask questions...noone is psichick...even experienced singers or guitarists

ask whatever else u need to ask, communicate with your dancer and singer

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 15 2008 3:56:53

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: Accompanyment theory (in reply to Florian)

Thanks!

Possibly I'm better than I'm giving myself credit for. In Spain I know they do a lot of these shows without needing to rehearse and in the scene here there's a lot of talk about vast amounts of knowledge needed for dance accompanyment which only few people have. Sometimes this gets me thinking there's a secret code out there I don't know about yet

Generally I am able to accompany any palo, after going through it 2-3 times I have it down. But what's with the dancers from Spain who give workshops with guitarists they've never met before but who know where everything is? There is always a traditional form with all the right signals there, right?

And why is memorizing looked down upon if one has to memorize anyways? I never memorize the number of compáses to a change, but often memorize what the dancer does during a change in a certain choreography. Is that all there is? Have people just been pulling my chain all this time?

_____________________________

Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 15 2008 4:18:07

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Accompanyment theory (in reply to John O.)

quote:

But what's with the dancers from Spain who give workshops with guitarists they've never met before but who know where everything is? There is always a traditional form with all the right signals there, right?

ive done that with a few dancers from spain and been lucky but really its all it is...really u are aproximating ( if the dancer knows its something non standard they will tell you)...if theres anything special they will let you know but most of the time its rithm...lamada, falseta, silencio, escobilla (if you cant recognise it on your own ask what part are we working on ?) etc..

alot is to do with experiece in that situation use everything u have ever accompanied and decide whats the most likely for it to be or come after intuition plays a huge roll (u can still be wrong)

after a while u recognise the llamada from the first step, just from experience and shift in accent and rithm, intuition and dancers face etc..

traditionaly before a llamada a dances takes a step or 2 back for buleria for example.. but the thing is this days everyone likes to be so diferent for dancing that i wouldnt relie on it..and llamadas get more and more complicated

once u have done it a million times u will do it with your eyes shut...but even then u wont know if theres a silencio or not or some special stop specific to that choreography unless the dancer tells you

quote:

And why is memorizing looked down upon if one has to memorize anyways? I never memorize the number of compáses to a change, but often memorize what the dancer does during a change in a certain choreography. Is that all there is? Have people just been pulling my chain all this time?

doesnt matter what u use to memorize something as long as it works for u and u memorize it..u use whatever works for you..besides llamadas, displantes etc.. its only a handfull of things that have general signes and menings and even those arent safe to wait for cause dancer might not do it or changed it..

recognising a llamada is the most important one u should know on your own..the rest u should be informed beforehand or you are well within your right to ask...

I have no idea if a dancer wants me to do a complete stop after a llamada in a solea por buleria eg.( for audience aplause ) before she goes into the buleria part etc.. unless she tells me before hand..by the time i realise on my own it will be too late for the effect...so they have to tell you ( or it might work out depending on her his body language your intuition but its just guesing, i wouldnt leave it up to that)

once u do it a while u wont need to ask as many questions but considering how long u have been at it u are well within your right to ask whatever question u want when u want, your dancer should be encouraging this..and should defenetly not be looking down on you for it...Palos that generaly remain the same speed are eazyer to accompany off the street...eg. Bulerias, Tangos etc..but

Even the best reherse and discuss...and thats for a reason..until you do u are guessing, even if u get lucky and get away with it Spain or No Spain

Remember Mike Figgs Flamenco WOmen ? some of the Best artists in Spain had to rhehersae 8 hours a day for a week before the show and that was rushed..

Sara Bara had to explain to EL Viejin a million times what she wanted specifically in her Alegrias Escobilla...and that was EL Viejin and even thou it was beeing filmed he did not stop until he was sure he understood exactly...the secret is communication and no egos, most important thing is to get it right..not how u do it or whos fault it is for not geting it right..

if your dancer is not good at communicating to you exactly what she wants invest in a portable recording device and record everything do it that way till intuition kicks in

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 15 2008 4:27:57