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Ricardo
Posts: 14837
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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 RE: Solea--Norman (in reply to Guest)
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Sorry cut in again. With Fernanda, it seems they had rehearsed a bit before recording and he forgot she wanted to repeat, maybe change her melody or something, so that is why she was "mad". The director thought that was "cute" and left it in. As coincidence as it Romerito, THAT exact performance is recreated on the CD version of the movie, and guess what, Paco plays POR MEDIO. Check out the difference dude.
About the Pansequito vid, that probably was not the first letra of the performance. My guess is he started out with some typical alcala, and as we saw earlier, the way a single performance can "Mix" styles is very common. Bulerias.......POR solea. 
More annoying is now a days many dancers are saying they dance "solea por buleria" and in rehearsal we get started at a normal tempo, then they stop after llamada, "ok the first letra is slower". I go slower and slower until they finally accept the tempo of what I feel has to be Solea, and sure enough good ol alcala is what they wanted all along for the first letra.
I tell them "why didn't you just tell me it was solea in the first place?", and they just look at me like "sure whatever".  More often than not it is because they want their solo number to be distinguished in the program from some other dancers "Solea". Lately to be clear what we are rehearsing we say "SOLEA solea". 
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Date Mar. 8 2008 12:04:15
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NormanKliman
Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
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RE: Solea--Norman (in reply to Guest)
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quote:
It has always been my understanding that the improvisation of FORM-if we may call it that for the sake of this discussion-doesn't alter the specific cante.
What are your thoughts on this?
Hi Romerito,
I think it depends on what structural elements we're talking about and what kinds of changes are made to them. For example, the fragmented delivery of Joaquín el de La Paula 3, the repeated second line of Paquirri 1 or the repetition of the conclusion of Paquirri 3 with a different melody are all characteristic parts of those cantes. You mess around with them too much and the cantes start sounding like something else or, at the very least, they lose their essence. Not necessarily bad things, but...
Panseco sings the following (first sung line of verse):
El día que me eches de menos: bulería larga
A tí te había dado Dios sabiduría: La Moreno 1, with Mellizo and Machango
Ay, otra botella: Juaniquí 4
Y corta: Pansequito
Bulería larga and La Moreno 1 are bulerías (por soleá), while Mellizo, Machango and Juaniquí 4 are soleás. I don't really know what to make of his last cante. He always tends to stretch things out and seems to be exploring as he sings, although with a clear idea of what he wants to do with it. This last cante reminds me of the siguiriya of Frasco el Colorao. I also thought I noticed some similarity to that Camarón thing on YouTube that we went over a few weeks ago (Amarilla y con ojeras), but it's no longer available, unfortunately.
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Date Mar. 9 2008 23:19:24
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NormanKliman
Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
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RE: Solea--Norman (in reply to Guest)
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Hi Romerito,
I haven't heard anyone talk about that Diego Clavel recording, but that doesn't mean anything.
quote:
Talega sings straight through with no repeats.
Yeah, that was way back at the beginning of his recording career, when he was 71 years old. Even if he is boiling it down to its essence due to waning faculties, it's a helluva job. They say that Torre sang some things the way he did as a result of his reduced lungpower. It's like those old guys from Okinawa that knew about nerve centers. It seems that they learned about these things through necessity.
quote:
So I take it some cantes must retain their structure to be classified as that particular cante while others are more open to improvising on the form.
That doesn't sound unreasonable to me, except for the word "must." I offered a few examples in my last message, although Paquirri 3 might not be the best example.
quote:
In this case, if the first tqo lines are repeated, are they done so A-B-B-B or is A-B-A-B an option.
Repeating the second line of verse is a popular format. For the last few days, I've been trying to go over all the examples of this style (Juan Talega) that are included in the Soler's green book (sig/sol). I still can't seem to find the time, but I did have a look at a number of examples and they all repeat the second line of verse. I'll see what I can find and will let you know.
In any case, anyone can sing anything they like. Very few singers are worried about rules and adherence to classic form, or maybe I should say that most singers are a little more interested in trying to do something original. Who wouldn't be? As listeners, we're more interested in detecting patterns and establishing rules.
Another matter entirely is how well things work one way or another. In the case of this style, for example, repeating the second line of verse breaks things up a bit, because lines A and B are sung with two different melodies, but in the repeat the first melody is sung using different words. That breaks up the monotony. Another example (and a different situation) is Joaquín 4, which you asked about not too long ago (Joselero's version). That'd normally be a three-line soleá: A-A-B-C. I suggested that maybe Joselero sings it differently because he used four-line verse for that version, because repeating the same melody with a different line of verse sounds funny. That seems to contradict what I've just said about the A-B-B-B structure. I really haven't looked into this as much as I'd like, but for now I'll stick to what I've said. Let me know if you have any thoughts on the subject and I'll see what I can dig up in the next few days.
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Date Mar. 12 2008 21:38:53
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Ricardo
Posts: 14837
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Solea--Norman (in reply to NormanKliman)
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quote:
In any case, anyone can sing anything they like. Very few singers are worried about rules and adherence to classic form,
As funny as it sounds, that pretty much sums up the "structure" of cante!
I would add that the "very few" who are worried are the ones that sing for baile and have to do things a certain way in order to work. Earlier when we talked about it I was trying to make a point that one can distinguish between the "pro square box" flamenco of the singers that need to work with different groups, vs the ones that can "sing whatever they like". All those details about repeats, proper chords,extensions, half compases or not, etc, are easier to understand once you determine what the performance was for. Was it a juerga? Was it a recording for an anthology? Was it a live festival? Was it a TV show or Movie? Was it a dance production?
I mean if you try to understand structure from the cante for a Dance production, you will think some singer in a juerga might be breaking "rules" or is not "good" or something. Likewise if you think an anthology is the "way" it goes, you miss out on the improvisation. And lastly if you only go by singers that canstantly change it or mix letras and styles, stretch, etc, you won't maybe even understand what defines the palo.
So all the above needs to be taken into account IMO when trying to understand what cante is all about, regardless if you want to just be an aficionado, a Dancer, a cante accompanist (guitarist), or even a singer yourself. In the end there will always be some aficionado around who hears a great singer and says "that is not the way it goes" or "that guy is only good por "bla bla", and doesn't have a clue about "bla bla".
Ricardo
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Date Mar. 13 2008 4:48:54
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