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Sympathetic Resonance Demo- Equal Temperament problems
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jalalkun
Posts: 276
Joined: May 3 2017
From: Iraq, living in Cologne, Germany
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RE: Sympathetic Resonance Demo- Equa... (in reply to Erik van Goch)
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since there is half a step between e and f, you can put 4 or 5 frets into this section of the fretboard to play the commas. i guess it was only for demonstrational purposes, if you want to make use of it in a practical manner - just as you correctly assumed - you only have to place frets for the commas you need to play a certain maqam. makam/maqam/magham [whatever] is the concept of scales and modes in middle eastern music, just like there is the dorian mode, the aeolian, the phrygian, the harmonic minor/major mode, there is a variety of maqams, differing not only in the scale progression from each other, but also in the base note. e.g. the maqam rast starts at a different note than the maqam saba. for the ease of playing (for not worrying about fret wire being in the way) fretless is actually the best way to go for this kind of music, but it's interesting and kinda weird to listen to a rather western instrument playing these tunes
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Date May 29 2017 18:04:25
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estebanana
Posts: 9413
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Sympathetic Resonance Demo- Equa... (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
Oh lord here we go again....trying to fix what ain't broken.....more crutches for the aurally challenged players. Ricardo! Right on schedule. I guess I jumped the shark in the first post because I did not intend this to be a 'let's bitch on intonation' thread- sorry if I misled. Yeah I was not suggesting a fix, I just liked the way the guy in the original video laid out the situation of overtone support with fixed frets, and I unconsciously compare that to bowed instrument overtone support which is 'ear intonated '. It's my preoccupation to compare instruments tuned in fifths with those tuned in forths. My thing is not that guitars are broken or incomplete intonation wise, but that I hear transposed music, from to fifths tuning to forths tuning, has overtone misplacements due to the overtone support of lack thereof on certain guitar notes. It's not a big deal to many people. I should have known better, inevitably the talk in flamenco circles or context moves to micro intervals and sub diatonic divisions as related to non Western systems, that's not the discussion I was thinking about, although now that it's going have at it. I was thinking more about why we ended up with equal temperament and why I like it instead of trying to find work arounds. Before I forget, several years ago I looked carefully at the 'True Temperament' system of fretting because a guitarist I know found it on the inter webbies and wanted to use it. I looked into how it works and decided I hope I never encounter a guitar with that craptastic arrangement of frets. The makers of the system were very unhelpful in communications and the set up is proprietary and if you have fingerboard repair and refrets issues you have to deal with the proprietary supply line. Thank you, but no thank you. Another opinion, but here goes, I've read extensively about temperament in the Western diatonic system we use, partly to understand the reasons behind our modern guitar intonation system and partly just because I'm curious about how things historically come about. The clearest most concise book I've found is by Mark Lindley- Called 'Lutes. Viols and Temperament' https://books.google.co.jp/books/about/Lutes_Viols_Temperaments.html?id=oXE5AAAAIAAJ&redir_esc=y There have been other books written since 1984, but they are not as straight forward to the point of dealing with the evolution of the diatonic system beginning in the late Renaissance and explaining how temperament on fretted instrument developed from there. This is salient because 'L,V and Temperament' states the case why equal temperament is a strong system for the guitar and traces the guitar lineage through the lute and instrument with movable gut frets. By examining the movable gut fretted instruments in the guitar lineage, the author compares each of the various temperament systems such as meantone, the fractions of comma, Gerle etc. to equal temperament. Anyway, highly recommended to give a proper background to the guitar since Torres. There are some other books, one written more as entertainment in world history of tuning and temperament, and others that delve into the nitty gritty of early music performance, none of which really focus on the equal temperament issue as we need to understand vis a vis the contemporary guitars arrival at, or really historical rootedness in equal temperament. Lindley's book is predicated on the idea that equal temperament was more centrally understood as a solid system from the mid 16th century on and the peripheral excursions into meantone, fractional comma etc. temperaments were important developments that he shows functions of in musical examples. He contrasts the examples of unequal temperaments with that of equal temperament and a very clear picture is drawn in how each kind of fret placement system makes which scale degrees more tense or less tense. In this manner he explains why, for example, Mozart's cadence progressions sound more profound in a particular temperament. or why Monte Verdi's theorbo parts are tempered to work with his music. It sounds complicated, but it's not and sets the stage for Lindley's summation as to why we have equal temperament today. Now back to your regularly scheduled "why equal temperament sucks" discussions. Thank you, and good day sirs. EDIT- Lutes Viols and Temperament is available through inter library loan or at your library, it's a seminal text on this subject. I used to borrow it out of Oakland Public Library
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Date May 30 2017 2:17:54
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3437
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: Sympathetic Resonance Demo- Equa... (in reply to Piwin)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Piwin I thought equal temperament was first developed on keyboard instruments (harpsichord and the like) and fretted instruments followed suit. There was a stronger practical motivation for the development of equal temperament on fretted instruments. Here is a photo of the keyboard of an organ, whose construction was finished when Bach was 35 or 36 years old. The black keys are split, distinguishing g# from a-flat, etc. This enabled sweeter intervals in certain keys, and modulations among those keys. On a fretted instrument this approach would lead to serious overcrowding in the upper part of the fretboard, but it was perfectly practical on a keyboard. Franz Caspar Schnitger was the son of his more famous father Arp. I'm not sure whether I have head any of Franz Caspar's instruments, but I have heard a few by Arp. In fact the Arkiv label series of the "complete" organ works of Bach, by Helmut Walcha, issued in the 1950s, was recorded on instruments by Arp Schnitger. I was impressed by the sweetness of these recordings long before I knew of the temperament. Walcha was blind, and learned the works he was not already familiar with by listening to his wife play them on harpsichord, one contrapuntal line at a time. The organs he used for the set of LPs had 17 notes to the octave, like the one in the photo.
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Date May 30 2017 20:15:40
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estebanana
Posts: 9413
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Sympathetic Resonance Demo- Equa... (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
Yes, it's called "playing out of tune". I am not saying it's easy, but it's rare that I hear a violinist intonating perfectly. The Indian violinists (like L Shankar and his brother) are raised with different ears and are razor sharp precise IMO. As a teen I listened to this girl Midori, the first time I really studied violin music, and she was unusually good, so I thought that is how all violinists played. A few weeks of listening to Piatgorsky, Casals, Rostropovich, Daniil Shafran, Irvy Gitlin, Stern and a host of other cellists and violinists will disabuse you of the out of tune notion. For these great artists intonation is emotionally malleable...the point of Casals' intonation. Not out of tune. Displaying your portative organ Richard? Also, intonated nut, not the point of this post. A solution to a problem, but not this one. This post is about listening. Now listen and get past the obvious conversation.
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Date May 31 2017 0:06:42
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