paco's hand doesn't move

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Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

paco's hand doesn't move

If you watch this, you see that Paco's hand _does not move_. Of course it moves to change positions, but the actual action of the fingers does not cause his hand to become displaced. He has such fine balance and touch that the "axle does not wobble" at all.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 10 2006 14:40:33

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: paco's hand doesn't move (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

yup

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This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 10 2006 15:22:49

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: paco's hand doesn't move (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Wow!
I never cease to be hypnotised watching Paco play that sort of stuff.
(Grisha's style is good to watch too!)

Does anybody find it refreshing to hear Bulerias played without palmas/cajon?

cheers

Ron

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 10 2006 15:57:48

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: paco's hand doesn't move (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

Does anybody find it refreshing to hear Bulerias played without palmas/cajon?

as refershing as i find reading a book by candlelight

only cause he hadent yet discovered the cajon, hasent done any buleria without it since

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 10 2006 16:01:29

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: paco's hand doesn't move (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Ron,
it's refreshing for me to hear flamenco without cajon, especially without fretless bass. I think this was part of my question I asked about Esteban de Sanlucar as far as "self contained pieces." If you have a cajon player doing all the work, then you can play a bunch of arpeggios and quick little tricky picados and be very "cool", eh? But a lot of times I want to hear the guitarist doing all the dirty work.

My goal is to get a group together, but I appreciate hearing a guitarist who's good enough to do it alone.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 10 2006 16:33:40

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: paco's hand doesn't move (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

ok ok sorry il correct it, yes i aprecite it , but wouldnt wanna do it, there would be no point doing offbeats and sinconpated stuff cause noone would hear it and it would always sound wrong or not have the same effect they should.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 10 2006 16:38:20

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: paco's hand doesn't move (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

If you have a cajon player doing all the work, then you can play a bunch of arpeggios and quick little tricky picados and be very "cool", eh?

This is very much like a point I was making ages ago, not for professionals etc, but students.
You can play anything you want over a cajon/palmas track.
Just noodle away...
It may not be good Flamenco, but it will theoretically be in compás.
(Or give you the confidence that you are playing in compás).

I think you've got to practise playing both ways, with and without.

cheers

Ron

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 10 2006 16:58:03

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: paco's hand doesn't move (in reply to Florian)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Florian
there would be no point doing offbeats and sinconpated stuff cause noone would hear it and it would always sound wrong or not have the same effect they should.

That's a good point Florian, none of that stuff works without the cajon player, does it? I guess to someone with modern tastes, more on the beat stuff sounds kind of lame like if a jazz player was listening to people playing just with major and minor scales, eh?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 10 2006 17:33:01

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: paco's hand doesn't move (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Miguel i did not say that buddy

i said that it dosent work and its true, there is no offbeat without the onbeat

everysingle buleria coming out of spain in the last 35 years has offbeats, contra , sinconpated stuff.

its like trying to do contra palmas when there none is doing on beat , theres no point cause u dont get the effect.

having acces to compas loops this days and not using them is like having electricity but wanting to read by cadlelight because u wanna prove how strong your sight is, theres no reason for it and it makes no sense.

youl never ever have to play a buleria by yourself without palmas in a gig unless you insist on it and it proves nothing except that you are trying to prove something 98% of the people dont really care about. (infact like it)

cajon and plamas arent done as a necesity they are done as a decoration as an added effect that contribuites to the flamenco feel while i can apreciate paco doing it , i am not gonna say it feels rereshing to me (cause thats insinuating that i am sick of the other) when i love the cajon and palmas and the hole circus that go ith it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 10 2006 17:38:52

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: paco's hand doesn't move (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

im more amazed with his Right hand. He changes so smoooooth between any technique

Man!! i feel like practiceing now.. To bad i have to be social with my girlfriend watching ****ing "IDOL"

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 10 2006 17:55:55

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: paco's hand doesn't move (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

yes Herik so am I , he is the master

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 10 2006 18:07:41

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: paco's hand doesn't move (in reply to Florian)

quote:

there is no offbeat without the onbeat

True Flo,
But can't a guitarist imply the onbeat, just through his steady playing?
Or are you saying there must be a reference beat? (palmas/cajon), to play syncopated falsetas?
I don't think that's true.
I've heard heaps of stuff...say PdL playing just solo, where he establishes a rhythm and then does lots of syncopation to the beat he has established in your head.

cheers

Ron

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 10 2006 20:10:37

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: paco's hand doesn't move (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

any preformer must have the rythm in his/her heart/head.

If you need a drumer/palmero/cajon to mark the rythm you simply need to work ON the rythm, or your sence of rythm.

coming from a jazz background i can tell you that you have to be dead sure where beat one is all the time cause the drumer might be doing some polhyrytmical stuff
and the bass might to a counter melodie to something you just played so you have to know or the music will fall a part.

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 10 2006 20:27:58

Ricardo

Posts: 14848
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: paco's hand doesn't move (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

But can't a guitarist imply the onbeat, just through his steady playing?

Yep. This vid above is not synchopated, but there is some funk in that 70's vid with Paco in bellbottom blue jeans. But you know his foot is always going at it, and it gives the reference to the audience. (Although the majority of folks in the audience are probably not able to follow even the general compas, much less synchopation).

But on the other hand I sort of agree with florian. I dont' mind when there is at least a foot tap, but some guys don't even do that, like M. Sanlucar. One of my favorite Pieces is "Tercio de Vara". Anyone know that one? He does this very beautiful thing with the rhythm where it is going like a machine underneath, but some melodies are "floating". It is not loose or improvised, but very deliberate, very sophisticated. It is really amazing to sense that "slowness" with the fast percussion behind him. But I have a vid of him playing it without percussion, and that affect is totally lost. In fact if you did not know anybetter, it might seem like he is being very liberal with the time, when in fact he is not.

So I really think it depends on the specific piece, but as you guys said, a player should at least be able to play steady on his own, synchopation and all, without percussion helping. As a student and focused listener, I like to hear the same piece played in different settings. Once with percussion, once without, different guitar, etc. It IS "refreshing" as Ron said.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 10 2006 21:16:49

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: paco's hand doesn't move (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

But that right hand....damn...

Ricardo, I know you are a student of Paco's technique. Any insights on getting the "still right hand"? I assume it's integral to his accuracy although I have seen people with floppy wrists that somehow manage to play great.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 10 2006 22:22:58

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: paco's hand doesn't move (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

One of my favorite Pieces is "Tercio de Vara". Anyone know that one? He does this very beautiful thing with the rhythm where it is going like a machine underneath, but some melodies are "floating".

Yes and that rondeña tuning is used with a different feel than i've ever heard before, i love those slow phrases over that intense rythm. Its like bullfighting when the torero moves the cape in slow motion when half a ton bull comes running at full speed.

About practicing without loops, i do that a lot, really slowly, to get the falsetas steady and clear, then its easy playing it with percussion, palmas or loops afterwards.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 10 2006 22:38:12

Ricardo

Posts: 14848
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: paco's hand doesn't move (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

Any insights on getting the "still right hand"?

Practice with the mirror, but make sure the angle YOU see is the same as that camera angle front on and a little above. Things look a lot different from the side. Make sure you are resting the thumb as much as possible, weight on the thumb not holding the hand steady with arm muscle. No bouncing around like Julian Bream. Relax the arm. Practice slow and in rhythm always. Just get a single falseta not an entire piece, where you are steady like you want it to be and get just that much up to tempo.

Ricardo

PS, my technique does not look like Paco's to me. So don't make it like it has to look exactly the same.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 10 2006 23:18:43

Patrick

Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon

RE: paco's hand doesn't move (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Ricardo,

Remember when you were in Portland and I remarked I liked your Buleria better in the video without backing, versus your live performance (with backing)?

Sometimes it just gets in the way.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 10 2006 23:21:09

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: paco's hand doesn't move (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

Any insights on getting the "still right hand"?

I use the thumb, pinky and the fingers playing the picado, as a sort of tripod resting pretty lightly on the bridge and top, then it cant move around, but thats when i need to use a lot of force.

Like if you would rest your hand on a table on your pinky and thumb, then the i m and a, are free to move but the weight is on the thumb and pinky.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 11 2006 0:18:52

Ricardo

Posts: 14848
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: paco's hand doesn't move (in reply to Patrick)

quote:

Sometimes it just gets in the way.

Yeah, but you are a guitarist, or a "focused listener" as I mentioned before. You were even aware what make of guitar I was using! Like I said it CAN be refreshing as Ron was saying. But now I remember... didn't I have a solo earlier that WAS some bulerias w/out percussion? Or Rondeña?

Plus it was an honour to play with Yi-Yi. Would have been nice to rehearse the tune, but it was just a last minute filler for a costume change. And I got to give him a solo spot there. Now I remember... he had cajon djembe cymbols etc. And the sound was probably not good since they only had monitors on. Now it is all coming back. So yeah i guess I see why it was too much "in the way" of the guitar for you.

But just think, if I had done that solo unaccompanied too, how was I gonna be able to fight off all the teenage girls backstage?

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 11 2006 5:29:49

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[Deleted] (in reply to Miguel de Maria)