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The "Loop" argument..
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Florian
Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia
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 RE: The "Loop" argument.. (in reply to Ron.M)
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Hi Ron , you toughts on loops are very familliar to me 
I cant stand the robotic sound of metronomes, i always practice with loops, atlist there is a human feel to it.
To be able to play with a loop u have to play in compas imo, so i dont know how that can hurt anyone, using a loop is the same thing as using a metronome only matter of what you prefer.
Personally I use the loops as a dressing because it enriches the music, i dont rely on the loop for my compas , my compas is good not because of the loops but because i play for dancers and i use my feet for compas and offbeats (eg my Sloea aire video). U can do a good offbeat but it wont be obvious without the loops that make you realise it.
I am not at all concerned that if u use a loop or "jingly" might seem tacky or like cheating..
All the loops i have come from a good flamenco guitarist cd, from someone like Paco or Vicente, or Tomatito.
quote:
Wasn't there a time when the guitarist was actually required to lay down the rhythm?
there was a while back but things have changed our days, if u listen to the Tomatito or anyone else the rythm is very minimalistic this days..
there is an art to playing less and still obtaning the buleria feel (eg Ricardos video)
it is harder than playing all the way trough.
On the new albums noone plays all the way trough and as soon as someone does u can gues the era he started flamenco on.
Is that " Less is more Mentality" where the compas and the rythm is allowed to breath more, and its left more in the air.
quote:
But I hear a lot of amateur uploads on the Net where the compás loop is really tight and groovy, but the guitarist is just basically jamming "free-form" over it
If u can play good over it and it sounds good well than you have good compas thats all there is to it, if youre in youre in.
At the end of the day, u can tell when someone plays good because of the loop or because he knows his rythm is very obvious and its up to the individual to decide whats right for them but playing along loops can in no way hurt.
ALl the the modern falsetas are composed to play along with the cojon since it has become a norm in a flamenco cd, alot of them dont work well without it, if u dont have acces to a cojon player all the time like the guitarists who composed do, loops of one playing is the next best thing.
My El viejing or Ramon Jimenez tangos falsetas dont sound as good without a loop weather i play em or Ramon and el Viejin play it, but i love those falsetas.
Just my toughts on the subject.
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Date Feb. 7 2006 22:48:27
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ToddK
Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004
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RE: The "Loop" argument.. (in reply to Ron.M)
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Playing with a looped phrase of live played rhythm like palmas or cajone, is
essentially the same as playing with live players.
NOT in the sense of interaction, and dynamic shifts of course.
BUT, the rhythm being "perfect" is exactly how it should be, and
would be with really good, veteran players.
Its all in the way you groove/play with it. You should be able to get
a great swing just with a metronome. Having a good loop, with a little
swing already present, you can really get a great feel.
As Ricardo has explained many times. The quarter note should be perfect.
Its not "mechanical". Its just how groove works.
As far as contributing to laziness, i think its the opposite, at least for me.
Things have to be fairly perfect with the loop, or its obviously off.
Playing free, with no rhythm track, you can go off here and there, or
speed up and slow down, and nobody really notices.
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Date Feb. 8 2006 1:41:58
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Doitsujin
Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005
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RE: The "Loop" argument.. (in reply to Ron.M)
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Heres the video of Rafael playing Alegrias and Solea samples. And sevillanas for dance. Read Rons fist text here, and than watch the video.
http://www.planet-wissen.de/pw/Artikel,,,,,,,E7962C60F758315EE0340003BA5E0905,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,.html
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Date Feb. 8 2006 11:28:31
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Ricardo
Posts: 14848
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: The "Loop" argument.. (in reply to Ron.M)
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I see both points you guys are making. Ron, you are right when it comes to practicing and learning. Like Todd said, when you have help with the swing and groove, it is easier than doing it yourself. So when practicing and learning, yeah you need to learn how to carry it yourself.
BUT, the whole point was to make a loop for EVERYONE to use and share and have FUN. So, no point in going on and on about what makes old or new fandangos beat proper. You can play Manolo de Huelva falsetas just fine over that loop. The only issue I have is that THAT particular loop is not very generic. It specifically tells me from the first note MENSAJE from Vivencias. Maybe you are so familiar with this track Ron you just WANT to hear that soft jazzy chord. But this is the proper feel interms of beat for fandangos. Oh, except that it is "cuadrao", do you guys know what I mean by that and what problems it might cause?
The other loop some one suggested had a pitched drum which annoys me more. So, really, complaining about a loop or percussion track is just an excuse. To say FANTASIA would not be enhanced does not prove anything. Besides, you have not yet heard it with percussion added, so how could you really compare? You are just guessing Ron, and even if you DID hear an excellent percussion added, you are already predjudice against it. I would love to hear El Tempul with palmas. I loved the version of Gujiras with the dancers feet. On the other hand, I thought the castanettes on Fabulosa were annoying.
So loops yeah can be potty trainers in terms of learning rhythm, but they will allow us all to play together and have fun doing it. If you really can't play any thing you know over that loop, then you really don't understand fandangos. Both old and new school ideas will work over it, as long as it is cuadrao.
Ricardo
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Date Feb. 8 2006 15:13:49
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soulstring69
Posts: 87
Joined: Jan. 26 2006
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RE: The "Loop" argument.. (in reply to Ron.M)
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quote:
But I hear a lot of amateur uploads on the Net where the compás loop is really tight and groovy, but the guitarist is just basically jamming "free-form" over it.
hi ron.m, you must be talking of about me. i knowed that i was doing that most of the time until florian and ricardo corrected me, and duende found it out for me. but, even though i'm learning to try flamenco, how else would i learn if not for those compas loops? and if they sell them to players and dancers, if not, how would the dancers practice if no guitar player is there? in one quick step, florian gave me the correct count on how to do bulerias and solea with the loops, and i never knew before. like you somehow too, sometimes loops can sound to perfect and the music looses the live effect, but as a learning tool like a metronome, i think they are good.
remember - CHORD taka dum CHORD tick tick ... that opened up my ears that were not there before.
david
"Oh, except that it is "cuadrao", do you guys know what I mean by that and what problems it might cause?"
what is that, please.
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Date Feb. 8 2006 17:46:04
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Ricardo
Posts: 14848
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: The "Loop" argument.. (in reply to Ron.M)
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quote:
I don't have that album..I was just using my imagination...is there really a soft jazzy chord there?
Ha ha, really?  Honestly, I would recomend it to anyone that has not heard it, it is really beautiful album, but since you already have your own idea about it, without ever listening to it, what would be the point? In that loop there is no cajon by the way. I hear dumbek, djembe, some other drum I don't know, and apagado. The drums are not very synchopated at all.
Personal taste is fine. No one is saying you have to LIKE the track, simply use it as the canvas for everyone. But in your first post about the loop you implied that Pdl cerca 1975 wouldn't/shouldn't/couldn't use the loop to play his style fandango. Not true, that style works fine over this loop. Also you said that a dancer would not like this type of percussion either. Well I in fact had to learn parts of that track specifically for some dancers that requested it. And they were not weird modern dancers or something. It is a very rythmically charged fandangos, even if you feel it is not "traditional". I had to play it w/out the dumbek etc, just me and 2 dancers marking compas with the feet. Sometimes I would be lucky enough to have a palmero when we performed it.
Anyway, understand I RESPECT your reasons for simply not liking the track and the instrumentation. But I don't see the need to imply that THAT makes it unuseable for the purpose of recording a bunch of different guitarists. Perhaps it can be used as a poofy scratch track, then some dancer can go back and do palmas or knuckles to it live, and then we erase the poofy drums. Or edit out the drums just for some peoples falsetas (Ron), then bring it back in for Florian. LOL!
Ok, cuadrao means the rhythm is squared off. Every four bars of 3 beats or however you think of it, the muted guitar gives a marked closure. There a lots of fandangos coplas and falsetas that are half compas just like bulerias. For the same reasons the compas CD/metronome don't always work out, someone's falseta might cross against the closure. That would throw off the loop for the next section unless either the loop is edited, or music is added. This is not an advanced or modern idea, you will find it in traditional compas too. I have even heard fandangos off by a single bar of 3 beats. I would recommend looping just the first two bars.
Ricardo
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Date Feb. 8 2006 18:12:32
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: The "Loop" argument.. (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
Not true, that style works fine over this loop. Also you said that a dancer would not like this type of percussion either. Well I in fact had to learn parts of that track specifically for some dancers that requested it. And they were not weird modern dancers or something. It is a very rythmically charged fandangos, even if you feel it is not "traditional".
You've got to remember here Ricardo, that I am not speaking as an experienced player here but sorta intermediate level learner... that is I have an idea about some of the guitar techniques and a little bit of knowledge of structure/styles etc but no more than I have heard from records etc.
All my posts and uploads are based on that, not from some expert opinion or position.
So I'm on the side of the beginner, trying to get to grips with just being able to keep a basic compás.
So this Group Fandangos is meant to be inclusive of EVERY member willing to have a go or see it as a bit of a challenge and have FUN with.
So the tentative beginner having got to grips with a basic Fandangos de Huelva rhythm, downloads the loops and hears " Rakkata Boom shaka shaka de shaka ting um shaka Bong ta um"!
Jeez...Let's at least keep the Group thing basic so everyone can keep the beat!
I know you are going to say "Yeah...but it's the SAME thing man...you've just got to ride the quarter note and groove with it".
Ricardo, man..that sort of stuff is easy to say after thousands of hours of study/ playing and Gerardo Nuñez courses in Spain, but I doubt if it would have been much use to you 10 to 12 years ago..yeah?
I know you are a really broad minded guy Ricardo, with a LOT more Flamenco experience than I will ever have, but I really can't hear Manolo de Huelva or Niño Ricardo...or even Sabicas' stuff being played to some of these "funky" rhythm loops myself.... (OK..I know in advance you are going to tell me I'm wrong)
Mind you...the Punks have done Sinatra's "My Way" and the MC's are busy recording "Dance" backing tracks to old hit singles....so who knows?
That could be a project for some Flamenco entrepreneur... "Niño Ricardo like you've never heard him before!" featuring the Nuevo Cajón Band de Sevilla..
Anyway Ricardo, thanks for your explanation of the quadrao and your general help here!
VIa CONdeOs
Ron
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Date Feb. 8 2006 20:26:04
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Florian
Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia
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RE: The "Loop" argument.. (in reply to Ron.M)
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quote:
Jeez...Let's at least keep the Group thing basic so everyone can keep the beat
To be fair Ron only a handfull of members were interested in that , noone put theyr hands up, Duende uploaded the loop and asked everyone what they think, the majority of the few who were interested voted on that one.
U didnt wanna be in the group fandangos so we didnt think it really matter to you what loop we used. I tought that the members who acctualy wanted to play in it can pick the loop they like, i love the vicente loop, henrik liked it and doitjujin liked it, that was the majority of the memebers involved. Every one had theyr chance to speak up.
I have alot of different music to learn for some weddings and gigs so i wanted to get mine done now, (plus i work on impulse and momentum) didnt wanna lose that.
Drums are used in flamenco to highlight parts of the music, thats exactly what i tryed to do is not dishonest flamenco is just music was trying to add some drums and cymbals in places where i tought it would higlight parts of my falsetas, would it all not sound as good without the loop ? perhaps, but that dosent matter because i thought out my falseta to fitt in with the loop, it was included in the planing.
I dont think that anything i used was overthetop infact i liked i used it as my demo too. http://dw.com.com/redir?&destUrl=http%3a%2f%2fmusic-files.download.com%2fsd%2foQr0qBoSxjYmBL3W30dJPzelVQC2YfuDVb6KsD4vXtfuDxKjDDBYD2bvMvB5bvwmyxu6oQrDW-WkMkj42zY_hhNESk2py5tz%2fmp3download%2f100868562%2f192%2fFlorianRemus-%28Demo_Only%29.mp3&edId=39&siteId=32&oId=3600-8503_32-100713031&ontId=8503&lop=link&tag=link<ype=dl_192k&astId=2&pid=100868562&mfgId=100713031&merId=100713031
I dont think i overdid it, since the falseta seems to be very picado orientated i tought il ninode pure it up with cymbals at the end lol.
Perhaps it wasent a good idea to do fandangos de huelva for a group because it a way it has a set structure almost like sevillanas, and i wasent sure how it was gonna work but i wanted to do it and i didnt wanna think to much about it, i liked the verdiales melody from nunez, and i tought it might work, might be something different, did it work ? i dont know ,
i dont care, its done now.
Btw. the way i play the fandango rythm is exactly the way Vicente plays it in a live concert i have.http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=31439&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1#
I dont mean to come off defensive but just incase this post was made with me in mind.
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Date Feb. 9 2006 3:43:56
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: The "Loop" argument.. (in reply to Florian)
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Hi Florian,
You are absolutely right in what you say.
I just kinda like these kind of discussions, as a lot of good stuff comes out of them...it gets folk thinking.
The trouble is the thread has become a little bit scrappy since it's addressing too many issues at once like Loops, Traditional v Modern, Instrumentation, who buys what CDs, Group Fandangos etc and they are all getting intermixed.
My first reply to duende was, as I said later.."tongue-in-cheek".
I referred to "poofy" as an "in-joke" between duende and yourself and I know you guys like the funky loops.
The loop was OK, but what I was suggesting was maybe to use a simple 3/4 sort of loop, just for timing purposes, not to be used as an actual backing track, since that was going to be added later in the final mix.
Going back to what I said earlier, I find "simple" more "generic" loops (ie ones with very little syncopation) are more of a "blank canvas", whereas the more ornate ones tend to suggest a playing style, whether you want it or not.
Now an experienced player will be able to pick out the underlying rhythm in ANY loop, no matter how syncopated, but where does this leave the beginner?
Another point I was making, was the value of trying to learn to carry the complete rhythm yourself...just to a single click beat, since all the pros can do it.
Anyway, it makes for an interesting discussion!
On a different point Flo...since I know you play for Singers and Dancers...
You mentioned about FdH of having a structured form, but isn't this just for the Cante and Baile?
I've heard intro falsetas and inter-copla falsetas and also some solos that don't seem to adhere (or only very loosely) to a definite "structure" apart from the compás.
Also with this "cuadrao" thing...
Does that apply to guitar playing for Cante/Baile only?
Can you suggest an example of this?
It's hard to get info on this sorta stuff.
cheers
Ron
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Date Feb. 9 2006 9:02:33
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Florian
Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia
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RE: The "Loop" argument.. (in reply to Ron.M)
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quote:
On a different point Flo...since I know you play for Singers and Dancers...
You mentioned about FdH of having a structured form, but isn't this just for the Cante and Baile?
Ron i am no fandango expert i dont do it that much (its not normally my fav palo is too much like spanish stuff eg, malaguena, sevillanas, etc.), i am doing it at a festival next week but i dont normally do it, thats why i said i dont know what the rules are i dont know if it as such a good idea to do it as a group solo, i just accompany what they dance and what they sing, but there is some parts that are always in, that makes me think that it is a structured palo.
Even in solo guitars there are some things that are constant and the melodyes are recognisable.
Either way it dosent matter now we have started, i hope i am wrong i hope its not structured.
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Date Feb. 9 2006 10:56:42
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, it was much more fun than against the metronome and also easier, because the chord placement became more obvious. 
