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NormanKliman
Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
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 RE: Norman Kliman (in reply to Guest)
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Hi Romerito,
>Wondering what your feelings are on Mairena.
Thanks for your message and for giving me an opportunity to express myself on the subject. You may regret having asked me, though.  I tried to make this a short response, but I've been at it for about three hours this morning, and it's pretty long. I don't want to sound authoritative on the subject. I might know a little more about him than others, but it's all about art and is therefore subjective. So if anyone disagrees or has something to add, please do so.
In my opinion, Mairena was an extraordinary aficionado. He learned directly from Joaquín el de La Paula, Manuel Torre, Niña de los Peines, Tío Parrilla and many others. Flamenco was his religion, as it is for many of you who are reading this, but the difference is that he used his knowledge, talent and money (he won the lottery twice) to change the course of development of the art form. He was the right guy in the right place at the right time. (Don't worry, I'll get to his less favorable aspects in a minute.)
In addition to his efforts to consolidate and promote flamenco, he was also an excellent singer. Of course, it's a matter of personal preference, but I feel that a number of his recordings are among the best in their respective categories. For example, some of his better soleás include the substyles of Paquirri 3 (Personas que están queriendo), Mellizo 1 (Como no puedo vengarme), Pinea (Esta casa huele a gloria), Machango (Son los cuatro puntalitos) and Juaniquí 2 (Cuando en la calle te encuentro), in addition to his many recordings of the Alcalá styles. It also seems that he came up with several of his own creations (Jerez and Triana). Remember, we're talking about substyles from five different regions, and if we take into account his cantes in other styles like siguiriyas, tonás, romances, bulerías por soleá and even cantiñas, the result is a considerable number of seminal recordings. Today's singers almost always refer to Mairena at one point or another when interpreting siguiriyas, tonás and romances. It's also worth noting his careful selection of the hundreds of different letras that he knew, many of which he found in collections of coplas published nearly 100 years earlier.
However, as I mentioned to Ricardo in another thread, one has to know how to distinguir. Not all of Mairena's recordings are so outstanding (and none should ever be considered definitive models). For example, his soleá of Paquirri 1 (A la orillita de un río) pales in comparison to Aurelio's (A rebato toquen). In that case, it sounds to me like Mairena gave it his best shot, in order to add another substyle to his recorded repertoire, but it just doesn't do it for me. Many of his recordings are a little stilted (lacking in "adventure," as a friend of mine says), and they say that when Mairena was in recording studios he was chiefly concerned with recording a "textbook" version for posterity (hence the qualification of "cold" you hear so often about him). This might very well have been the case, as we can deduce from some of his live recordings in peñas and festivales. He didn't master all singing styles, either, and I'd look to other singers to learn about Levante, for example. He recorded many different substyles of bulerías, but I'd much rather listen to other singers in that style. For listening pleasure (his voice), I only like some of his recordings up to the early 1970s.
All of this is perfectly understandable, because nobody can sing every style exceptionally well all the time in all circumstances and throughout their entire artistic career. But you really have to know how to distinguir when you read some of the comments in his otherwise excellent book "Las confesiones..." Some are outright racist and others practically incoherent, like the whole bit about Razón Incorpórea and how it appeared before him at a gypsy wedding. This isn't all that important to me. I've got my reasons, and this text is already w-a-y too long, but let's just say that anyone who'd believe that and feel foolish afterward gets what he deserves. Mairena's singing is the only thing that really matters. He felt that he had a job to do, for his people and for his art form, and he expressed his opinions accordingly.
Personally, I feel that flamenco is much better off today thanks to the job he did. A fundamentalist approach really wouldn't make sense today. There are several reasons why I feel that way, but the most important of them is that Mairena achieved what he'd set out to do. Consolidation is part of development.
>others see him as someone who recreated cantes for the sake
>of preservation without really knowing some of them
How can we determine how well he knew them? Like I said, his version of Paquirri 1 strikes me as a bit contrived, and the few Levante styles he recorded aren't very good. But I think you're referring to some of his unfounded attributions, like El Fillo, Paco La Luz 2, Noriega, etc. Mairena's interest in learning from old aficionados is well known. He was perhaps the best "archaeologist" of cante of all time, due to his skill and his circumstances. In the other book I mentioned (Antonio Mairena en el mundo de la siguiriya y la soleá), the authors Luis and Ramón Soler analyzed over 2,000 recordings of siguiriyas and soleás recorded by singers born up to 1920. Most of what Mairena sang can be found on those recordings. As for the rest... Like I said, he felt that he had a job to do, and he felt that part of that was to attribute as much as possible to his people. How can we really know what siguiriyas El Nitri sang, let alone those of El Fillo? In a number of Mairena's recordings, it seems pretty clear that he added his own ideas, although he never attributed even one cante to himself. He was very good at developing cantes, and he had a lot of information at his disposal. I feel that the mere existence of his creations and their solvency are far more important than any questions regarding their authenticity. I don't really care that much about the accuracy of the attributions, I'm just glad that he recorded those cantes.
In my opinion, singers have always tried to do things their own way, just like we do with falsetas. You make something your own out of necessity and preference. I think that things have always been that way in flamenco, except for the years in which Mairena's influence was strong. Some conclusion, huh?
>Can you explain the variation in Buleria Corta "Yo quisiera..." Pavon,
>and "El sitio donde..." I just don't hear much of a difference. At least
>not one that couldn't be chalked up to interpretation and not an actual
>separate melody.
Yeah, they're practically identical, differing only in the way he holds on to the IV degree (D por medio without capo) throughout the first line (in the substyle attributed to Tomás Pavón). I agree that it's splitting hairs, and I haven't really figured out what to do yet in that regard, because I think that the attributions could be streamlined. I used nearly all the nomenclature set forth by the Solers (this one appears in the liner notes of the Tomás Pavón CD put out by the Junta de Andalucía), and sometimes they might go a little too far. For example, I didn't classify Tomás' "Válgame Dios y no le temes" as a separate Alacalá substyle. However, the more substyles we establish, the richer the analysis. But then again, if we were to take into account all kinds of different variations (Marchena, Camarón, Morente, Pansequito, etc.), the result would be overwhelming. In an effort to simplify things a bit, I used a larger font at the top of the soleá and siguiriya pages for the more frequently sung substyles.
Well, thanks again for asking. I hope this leads to an interesting exchange among a number of forum members. If it's felt that it'd be more appropriate to handle this privately, I'd be happy to discuss the subject with anyone who's interested.
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Date Feb. 8 2008 22:53:43
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NormanKliman
Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
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RE: Norman Kliman (in reply to Guest)
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quote:
Any recommendations?
Kate: The 16-CD anthology. May seem like a lot, but it's well worth it if you're interested in that kind of flamenco. CD 15, in particular, is a good one for learning soleás and siguiriyas. The vinyl and cassette reissues of that recording (Zafiro) include some very interesting soleás de Triana that weren't included in the 16 CDs.
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The only Mairena I have is his Chant du Monde Grands Cantaores volume. Would you say that this is representative of some of the stronger aspects of his work?
srshea: Some of the tracks are Mairena at his best, but I wouldn't say it's representative. Of the 18 tracks, there are two tientos, two fandangos, a granaína, a malagueña, campanilleros and a taranto. Not really Mairena's best styles.
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I've got Mairena's La Llave de Oro del Cante Flamenco. No idea if this is his best work, but sounds pretty good to my newbie ears
Ailsa: Some tracks of that recording are on the Chant du Monde disk that srshea mentioned.
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I find it very interesting that the authors speak of "bailable" solea which they refer to as having a rhythm approaching buleria por solea.
Romerito: There's a Fods tape of Talega and Diego del Gastor, all soleá and siguiriya, and some of the soleás are fast paced like that. Same cantes of Talega but much quicker.
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...the issue of what Pohren called soleariya is not addressed on your site nor in the book "Los Cantes de AM..."
I know what you're talking about, because I remember seeing texts about the soleariya in Machado (Demófilo), Mundo y Formas and Pohren. I'm sure I've heard it at one point or another, but I think it's pretty rare. You hear shortened endings for most soleás (Vente conmigo/dile a tu madre/que soy tu primo), but it's not the same as soleariya. I had a quick look at Rafael Moreno's letras site, and it looks like there are a couple of soleariyas in Matrona's 1947 private recordings, but I'd have to do some serious digging to find those CDs. In any case, you've aroused my curiosity. So if you haven't got the recording and you're interested in pursuing the matter, let me know and I'll try to find it. Or let me know of any other recordings of soleariyas.
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You write that the solea is 3 lines of octosyllabic poetry but some authors have different combos.
Huh? Did I write that or am I misunderstanding you?
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In LCdAM the authors write that some solea variations are typically sung with 3 lines and Antnio sang them with 4 (on occasion) to lesser effect.
If this is something you want feedback on, I'll need to know the page number.
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Do you think there will ever be another artist/aficionado like him.
Sure, but it won't be the same, because of what I said in my last message about AM being the right guy in the right place at the right time. There are several unique circumstances to take into account, including Opera flamenca, the state of the recording industry at that time, his exposure to legendary singers and an anachronic way of life, etc.
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Camaron was a very knowledgable singer. Do you think if he hadn't passed he might have eventually looked back and done something similar to Mairena?
Nearly all of Camarón's earliest recordings (with PdL) are straightforward traditional cante. As I said in my last message, in the wake of Mairena's accomplishments, a fundamentalist approach doesn't make much sense to me. If Camarón were alive, he'd have enough money to do whatever he liked, and I think he might have settled down and concentrated on his family, but I really don't know.
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For example, anecdotes. As I mentioned in my post (before I began editing it), Chaqueta (as related in his biography) corrected Mairena on several occasions and is said to have been more complete than the majority including Mairena.
Yeah, they say he was knowledgeable and the handful of his recordings indicate that. His delivery was so highly developed, too. Excellent singer. One of those pockets of information that you mentioned on the bulería por soleá thread.
Anecdotes are interesting, although their value is usually relative. Regarding how that one relates to Mairena's knowledge, the biography states that Chaqueta corrected Mairena on one occasion (not several) at the peña Juan Breva in Málaga. I've never heard anyone say that Chaqueta knew more than Mairena, although maybe that's what they say in Chaqueta's hometown. In any case, there are so many cantes in the different parts of Andalucía that I don't think anybody's ever mastered them all. For example, I imagine that a number of people from Alosno could have corrected the fandangos of either of our Antonios (Chaqueta or Mairena).
I don't want it to sound like I'm defending Mairena at all costs, it's just that I don't pay that much attention to some anecdotes. As a form of exhalting Chaqueta's talent, that kind of story enhances the art form, but it says nothing about what Mairena didn't know. (Excellent comments on anecdotes in LCdAM pp. 241-245.) Maybe Mairena made a mistake that night or added something unusual to a tercio, and that's what Chaqueta was pointing out. Who knows? Just after that anecdote, on p. 128, there's another one about Marchena correcting Chaqueta.
If you feel that you owe it to yourself and to flamenco to seek out and learn from the most authentic sources, I'd suggest that the best thing you can do is to do what Mairena, Camarón and many others did: consider as many sources as possible, take the best and skip the rest. If we must prioritize those sources, Mairena's versions should be at the top of the list (or near it, anyway). Just don't ask where he got them.
There's a very interesting observation on this subject in your book (LCdAM, p. 261). The authors and the pianist José Romero say that if Mairena's siguiriya "Mataste a mi hermano" (Fillo 1) is his own invention, it has even more merit. Flamencologists coincide in most attributions, and there are maybe 10 of AM's siguiriyas that some might object to. If a singer comes up with 10 new siguiriyas, that sounds to me like the whole reason we're here.
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But if someone else sings their own melody set to El Nitri or El Fillo's letras how does one begin to classify?
Regarding those two examples, Mairena was the only one to record and attribute to El Fillo his "Mataste a mi hermano" (others recorded it after him, but you know what I mean), and he even stated that he'd taken a fragment he'd heard from an old gypsy woman and expanded on it, so that seems to be one of the styles he made up. About El Nitri, Sernita recorded it in 1959, and it's close enough to Mairena's 1964 version (Por aquella ventanta). Ricardo Molina wrote that Pastora knew and sang that siguiriya, so we can assume that Mairena's version is pretty close.
To answer your question, I think it depends on the case. It gets tough when the discrepancies outweigh the coincidences.
For example, Manolito de María's four-line soleá "Que se menean cuando yo paso" has the first line of Agustín Talega 1, and the rest is Juan Talega, but starting at the second line of verse and adding at the end of the third line of verse the strong ascent heard in Machango. I'd call it Juan Talega sung with some variations. That bulería por soleá of Camarón that we saw on YouTube a few weeks ago (Amarilla y con ojeras) starts out like the bulería larga in the first verse, but goes to another galaxy for the second and third lines, so what do we call it? I still might consider it a bulería larga, but it's starting to get tricky. There's a recording of Perrate at a private fiesta singing the substyles Juan Talega, Frijones and Joaquín el de La Paula 3 in five lines of verse (adds a "compañera de mi alma"). Now what do we call it? The deviation from the norm.
Since his death, there's been an awful lot of bad talk of Mairena. Writers like Gamboa and Blas Vega seem to take delight in irreverently kicking his corpse, or, at the very least, in "evening the score." I honestly feel that that kind of attitude is more deserving of suspicion than anything that Mairena wrote or said.
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Date Feb. 10 2008 20:25:46
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NormanKliman
Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
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RE: Norman Kliman (in reply to Guest)
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Hi Romerito,
Yes, there are a number of differences. Joselero's version was classified as Joaquín 4 by the authors of that book, and I included it in the website because there are so few versions of that style by other singers (it seems to be one of Mairena's "inventions").
The most important difference is the four-line verse that Joselero sings vs. Mairena's three-liners. This might be the reason for his resolution to A minor the first time around because it sounds funny to use the exact same melody for two different lines of verse. A number of three-line styles are sung A-A-B-C, singing the same melody for the repeated first line (A-A) and concluding the cante with the second and third lines (B-C), repeated if desired (B-C-B-C). Two examples of this structure are Frijones and Paquirri, but there are many more. If you try to do that with four-line verse, you end up using the same melody for the first and second line of verse, which sounds funny. So, he might have resolved to A minor in order to break things up a bit. It seems that he gravitated toward A minor in several different soleás.
Another big difference is that Joselero sings the conclusion (third and fourth lines of verse) of Machango (Ollero, Juaniquí, whatever). It's a move that many singers have recorded in different styles, like a "wild card" that they play at the end of the cante, particularly if the singer is closely associated with the province of Seville (Perrate, Chocolate, Gaspar, etc.) Conclusions often have more to do with a singer's artistic roots than the style being sung, hence Jerez singers tend to end their cantes like Frijones, those influenced by Alcalá "remember" Joaquín, etc. So, if the conclusion is something he's just adding on, we have to look to the first half of the cante for the identifying characteristics, and the closest fit is Joaquín 4, although it's true that there are more discrepancies than coincidences.
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Date Feb. 12 2008 20:50:15
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Ricardo
Posts: 14824
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Norman Kliman (in reply to Guest)
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Interesting stuff guys, just felt like reading without getting in between. I just want to say that if a singer hits a "wrong" note, and the guitar gets the wrong tone because of it, it is sometimes OK. Not on an anthology for study of course, but in general I mean. Some singers give a dirty look, some ignore the wrong chord, others actually go WITH the wrong chord and pull the guitarist out of it. I think for Solea it is more dangerous to play around that way, but still it can happen. I have heard some old style players not even do the G7-C cambio in the middle, but stay on G. Sometimes if a guitarist misses something, Just F-E is the safest thing, and it keeps the modality so it works. But I think yeah, if a singer is a little flat in a standard melody, the guitarist should know it was not meant to call in a non typical tone.
The reason I love Rito (sorry to bring it up again) is because you SEE the singers doing there thing and interacting with the guitars and friends, etc. You dont' get that on a record. Those anthologies are good, but one thing that Rito really made me understand about cante, is to distinguish the home grown flamenco from the "professional" flamenco singing. I mean pros that needed to live from singing, had to fit their Grandma's "loose and vague" song into a nice little square box so they could work with different guitarists and dancers. By doing that, the "correct" version and way it should be accompanied is NOT AT ALL like the original. In a way that is bad for the flamencologists that want to study the true authentic forms. On the other hand, that is part of the beauty of the art form. I mean that a single cante will change drastically from one person to the next, amature to pro, mother to son, etc, but still, somehow, it is still the "real thing" and "pure".
I remember having an arguement about compas with zata. She was saying compas for the singer was different than for the guitar, even at that same moment they are together. I did not get that, because working for dance, I know how a melody "feels" in rhythm, and when a singer sings it "out of compas" it is obvious. But watching Rito, vs just listening to anthologies, I really SAW how what I was defending was the concept that the pro square box cante was the RIGHT and only orginal way. Actually the opposite is true, the majority of cantes were put INTO the box after they were created. Look at Lebrijano and what he learned from his mom. Look at Chozas vs Mairena's and other's way to sing his improvisations. Someone just loaded Rancampino with temple starting on the half compas. Perla de Cadiz and many did the same, and in Jerez with Solea same thing, half compas. Look at Borrico singing solea very slow but the guitars going almost double speed solxbul over top, trying to grab the right tones along the way. I mean I had not really focused on the "famous" amature singers enough to make the distinction before watching Rito. Very interesting stuff for me. So for me, a note is "wrong" or not depending on WHO is singing, and where they are coming from. If it was lebrijano for example, not Joselero, I would say, yeah that was a "wrong" note, but considering....
The real big question I have for flamencologists is this. HOW did it turn out that for bulerias, the guitar can do half compas, but for Solea, Solxbul, Alegrias, etc, no matter how the singer sings it, the guitar keeps 12's for the cante?????????? I mean once you accomp and see the logic, you would think SOME players would have evolved their accomp to include remates in 6's for Alegrias or Solea....especially in Jerez. But they don't...I dont' get it. Even amature guitarists. I did find ONE SINGLE half compas Solea by Antonio Carrion for Chano, but I am sure it was accidental. And I looked for it A LOT. I am not saying you won't find OTHER examples, but still it is strange to me. Any theories you guys have I am real interested in.
Ricardo
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Date Feb. 14 2008 19:41:21
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zata
Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
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RE: Norman Kliman-edited post (in reply to Guest)
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quote:
The soleariya that Pohren writes about, I believe has a shorter first line, hence the diminutive. 2-5 syllables. How does this affect the melody.
On those rare occasions when singers (usually older ones) use the word “soleariya” it’s to refer to a 3-line verse with a shortened first line, like the typical BxS “Dinero…”. The second and third lines are 8 syllables. Any three-line verse can be sculpted in this way (the same thing is common in fandangos), provided the verse makes sense:
Sí serán
unos tormentos mu grandes
verte y no poderte hablar
Obviously, certain verses go with certain melodies or styles, and this is even true dealing with verses that share the same poetic meter. I snuck two sentences into my book about flamenco in the haciendas of Jerez that had nothing whatsoever to do with the topic, simply because few people appreciate the importance of the right verse for the right style, and you can’t write a book based on two sentences:
“Aunque el cantaor se sirve de toda la libertad del mundo para retocar la poesía y administrar la distribución de las sílabas, estas modificaciones siempre van a obedecer a las exigencias de la música y también de la expresión artística. Si el compás o golpe rítmico cae en una sílaba no acentuada, tenemos que asimilar la momentánea incomodidad producida por las palabras así deformadas: siempre es preferible cantar co-ra-ZON y no co-RA-zon, o mu-JER y no MU-jer”. p. 70 ‘Flamencos de Gañanía’
[Although singers reserve the right to exercise complete freedom to retouch and manipulate the poetry and the administration of the syllables, these modifications always obey the demands of the melody and of artistic expression. If the compás, or beat falls on an unaccented syllable, we are momentarily subjected to the discomfort that results from the deformed words: it’s always preferable to sing co-ra-ZON and not co-RA-zon, or mu-JER and not MU-jer].
It’s partly for this reason that certain verses become so tightly stuck to certain styles. When a great verse finds its perfect musical match, good things happen, even the compás flows better.
_____________________________
Estela Zatania
www.deflamenco.com
www.expoflamenco.com
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Date Feb. 15 2008 0:07:47
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zata
Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
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RE: Norman Kliman (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
HOW did it turn out that for bulerias, the guitar can do half compas, but for Solea, Solxbul, Alegrias, etc, no matter how the singer sings it, the guitar keeps 12's for the cante?????????? I mean once you accomp and see the logic, you would think SOME players would have evolved their accomp to include remates in 6's for Alegrias or Solea....especially in Jerez. But they don't...I dont' get it.
I started wondering about that nearly 50 years ago! I think the answer is that bulerías began life in thunky funky sixes, and kept that same free-wheeling spirit even after Ricardo and others popularized the twelve-beat phrase similar to soleá.
Another issue is the tempo. Waiting out a half compás por soleá can feel like a lifetime, so the cante tends to pour itself neatly into each full compás. In bulerías however, the cante is responding to the short pulse of twos and threes, and no singer is going to relinquish that freedom.
_____________________________
Estela Zatania
www.deflamenco.com
www.expoflamenco.com
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Date Feb. 15 2008 0:56:01
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NormanKliman
Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
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RE: Norman Kliman (in reply to Guest)
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Hi Ricardo,
quote:
Some singers give a dirty look, some ignore the wrong chord, others actually go WITH the wrong chord and pull the guitarist out of it.
I was going to mention that and decided not to, just to avoid rambling on. As Mark Twain said, "Eschew surplusage." Certainly, some singers give a dirty look. 
What I was going to say is that I think I see that happening a lot in bulerías and tangos, maybe even a siguiriya or two, if I remember correctly. Typically, there's a change from the A-B flat cadence; not a C chord, but something that isn't too unusual, like an E7, an F, a G minor, whatever, but the guitarist doesn't catch it and keeps playing A or B flat. What I think I see is the singer quickly realizing this and neutering the melodic line to make it fit the accompaniment. You mentioned "pulling the guitarist out of it." Wow, that'd be one heck of a singer! (No sarcasm intended.)
quote:
I have heard some old style players not even do the G7-C cambio in the middle, but stay on G.
Pedro Peña does that on a lot of recordings, and I always thought it had to do with the predominance of romances in that part of Andalusia, but that's just a guess.
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Those anthologies are good, but one thing that Rito really made me understand about cante, is to distinguish the home grown flamenco from the "professional" flamenco singing.
Have you seen La Sabina with Eloy Blanco? It's on one of those Rito DVDs. I haven't seen it in a while, but for some reason I remembered it when I read what you wrote above. They don't really hit it off, but watching how they grope to make some kind of connection is interesting in its own right. I don't remember if it's a fandango or a soleá, but at one point things start to gel, and we (or maybe its just me) get an idea of what she was capable of. By the way, I think Eloy Blanco was actually the character "Efrén Gris" in Gerald Howson's "The Flamencos of Cádiz Bay."
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I mean pros that needed to live from singing, had to fit their Grandma's "loose and vague" song into a nice little square box so they could work with different guitarists and dancers.
Okay, I agree with the idea, but a a lot of those old grandmas had real tight compás. As you're well aware, flamenco goes back to the days before there were televisions or radios or other mind-numbing distractions. "Parlor games."
quote:
By doing that, the "correct" version and way it should be accompanied is NOT AT ALL like the original. In a way that is bad for the flamencologists that want to study the true authentic forms. On the other hand, that is part of the beauty of the art form.
I agree. It's often said that money is responsible for corrupting pure singing, and I can understand that point, but I think it's also motivation for a singer to try to do a better job. You want a job done right, you call in a professional. I've got a friend in Madrid who's always defending the idea of the tradesman in singing. It's a little less glamorous a concept than "artisan" or "craftsman." It implies discipline, dedication and professionalism and is at direct odds with singers that are more anarchic, moody and unstable. Maybe Fosforito would be an example of a tradesman and El Torta might be representative of the other kind. I think that the "pro square box" you mention has a lot to do with the development of cantes and even the artistic merit of many singers.
quote:
HOW did it turn out that for bulerias, the guitar can do half compas, but for Solea, Solxbul, Alegrias, etc, no matter how the singer sings it, the guitar keeps 12's for the cante??????????
Montoya and his followers used to throw in an extra 7-8-9-10-11-12 in bulería por soleá and even straight soleá. It's not just any old half compás, because the 7-8 is emphasized, and it doesn't always coincide with a "zero verse" (compañera de mi alma), although it's almost always in the next-to-last line of verse. So it happens in soleá accompaniment, too. The guitarists who did this were Montoya, Borrull (father and son), Manolo de Badajoz and Paco Aguilera and maybe a few others that I haven't detected yet. I haven't found a single recording of Melchor or Ricardo doing that, although they sometimes played half-compás falsetas when they accompanied.
So we've got a similar situation in bulería por soleá and even soleá in recordings from the 1930s. But I think the reason for the half compás in bulerías is that guitarists started adding an extra six (rasgueado) as the singer ended the cante or at the end of a long falseta. It sounds better that way, but it doesn't add up.
I think Manuel Morao and Terremoto played a big part in defining bulerías.
As far as I know, bulerías comes from soleá or cantiñas, both 12-beat arrangements. Borrull played a lot in choppy six-beat units, but not all the time, and Montoya and many others basically played double-time soleá and cantiña falsetas nearly up to the first half of the 20th century.
Morao, Morao, Morao...
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Date Feb. 15 2008 4:58:33
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zata
Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
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RE: Norman Kliman (in reply to NormanKliman)
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quote:
Some singers give a dirty look, some ignore the wrong chord
I don’t know about the U.S., but in Spain it’s extremely rare to find a singer who listens to the guitar. The dirty looks are usually reserved for when the singer makes a mistake….he or she shoots a look that lets listeners know “it’s the guitarist”. All a singer normally notices is “something sounds funny”, without actually knowing why.
Wrong chords is a non-issue. How do you define “wrong”? When a fandango resolves on an E in the first line, as is typical of many styles, and you play an E chord, it’s the wrong chord, because the first line of a standard fandango resolves musically in C, and anything else will sound “wrong” to any flamenco aficionado, including the singer who will then employ the dirty look: “something sounds funny”. I’ve sung for classes with inexperienced guitarists who believe you can actually accompany cante by ear. You cannot. The ear is only valuable once you know cante accompaniment.
Since the dawn of Paco de Lucía, the harmonic palette has exploded and you can no longer get by with three chords per cante like in the old days. I know youngsters who consider the cejilla something the old guitarists used to use. Juan Maya, one of the greatest accompanists of all time (IMO) told me shortly before his death that he could no longer play for cante, because young singers expected chords he never used. Does that mean he was playing the “wrong chords”?
As recently as Perico del Lunar, Gm was not used in cante accompaniment, even for styles where we now consider it the only possible option (tientos such as “Inmediato” or bulerías such as “Joselito Joselito”). Was everyone accompanying those cantes “wrong”?
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Estela Zatania
www.deflamenco.com
www.expoflamenco.com
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Date Feb. 15 2008 6:02:18
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Ricardo
Posts: 14824
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Norman Kliman (in reply to NormanKliman)
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quote:
Montoya and his followers used to throw in an extra 7-8-9-10-11-12 in bulería por soleá and even straight soleá. It's not just any old half compás, because the 7-8 is emphasized, and it doesn't always coincide with a "zero verse" (compañera de mi alma), although it's almost always in the next-to-last line of verse. So it happens in soleá accompaniment, too.
Cool, but I have not ever heard it. Any chance to point me to it or an upload?
I mean for me the 78910 thing IS "any old half compas". At least for bulerias, and as i said I have not noticed the same thing in solea/bulerias por solea, or alegria. Any alegria examples? I am real curious about it. Even if you DO have examples, I still don't get why bulerias is allowed, based on logic and feeling of the music. I mean, speed is not the answer for me. If anything, it would be the OPPOSITE. A half compas of solea being allowed while a faster bulerias should be square for the sake of TIME makes more sense to me. But it is the opposite that is the norm.
Romerito, also noticed Carrion. Hmmm, coincidence?? Maybe he is of the generation that learned the "square box" as I mentioned, or got used to that way, and accompanying singers that like it OUT of the box leaves him in an awkward position, hence the half compas solea. Or maybe, that is HIS great innovation to flamenco. I think it should have evolved to be a standard practice at SOME point. Perhaps in the future we will look to Carrion for opening the door for the half compas solea/alegria etc...
But the point Zata makes about how if you are experienced accomp, you make it "sound" like it is in, even if the math is wrong. Really she means "feel" like it is in, because that is what it is all about compas wise, the feeling. The singer stretches, the guitar didn't and NOW the guitarist knows, so NOW he better make it work. That is my point about the "pro square box" vs the "home grown" flamenco. Both are valid, so the problems for categorizing the art form become apparent. A good accompanist knows well the "square box" AND can bust out of it at a moments notice. Tuff to do.
For zata about defining "wrong" chords. I should have put "wrong" in quotes too, because I am with you that singers dont' necessarily get thrown by chords in any direction, and also I believe with modal music, any chord other than tonic is just color of the scale, it all works. But I will safely define what I was orginally refering to here. Romerito meantioned a "G" chord in Solea (E phrygian) for Solea Alcala. I implied that for that melody, where it should be A minor or F major, a G chord is "wrong" because it is not typical for that melody, and it was the fault of the singer for being a bit flat. This is all my personal assumptions based on Romerito's description, I would have to hear it to give my true heartfelt feeling. I was just suggesting that a skilled singer, in MY experience, can actually lead the guitarist through the tonos that he wants, WITH his voice. So my point all along is that even though a seeming "wrong" chord is out of the box, it is not necessarily "wrong" in terms of flamenco. Even if it was not intentional.
I just wanted to make a small point at this time that for both Zata and Romerito, using language like "I dont' know about usa but in spain they do bla bla bla" or "are INSIDERS allowed to break the rules of compas" etc. That type of mind set is opening the door for "ok if you are SPANISH", or deeper "if you are gitano or andaluz" or whatever predjudice, you are IN compas even when you are not. That is no good IMO. I am just pointing it out at this time, not really saying anything, it just has that extra meaning using that type of language, from my POV.
Ricardo
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Date Feb. 15 2008 18:25:54
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NormanKliman
Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
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RE: Norman Kliman (in reply to Guest)
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srshea: Try to get the Quejío release if you can find it. Actuaciones históricas is another very good recording. The limited selection of palos isn't really a setback because Mairena excelled in a handful of styles. He knew how to sing just about everything but was exceptionally "long" in siguiriyas, soleás, tonás, bulerías, cantiñas, etc.
Romerito: I listened to "Un castiguito." After he sings "Mira qué verdad más grande / la que yo quiero decir," there's a falseta at 2:05, but it's all in compás. I checked the other track ("Preguntar") at the same point, but everything I heard is in compás.
quote:
Is it acceptable to go out of compas if you are an "insider?" (From the culture)
It's wrong no matter who you are, but sometimes you can get away with it, depending on what you play and how you pull it off, but also on how the audience feels about you at that moment.
quote:
The Joaquin 1 resolves to A in the first tercio melodically and the guitarist follows. However some singers embellish the melody and the final not may be a G#. The G# is again, embellishment...not to be taken as a chord tone. However, One of the singers on your site (joaquin 1-NOT SURE, have to check the previous post) embellishes by falling to G. The G leads the guitarist to G.
Should that Gnat also be sonsidered an embellishment. If not, would that be yet another variation of Joaquin 1?
We're talking about very specific details and I need to know what recordings and exactly what moments you're talking about.
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Date Feb. 15 2008 19:38:35
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zata
Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
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RE: Norman Kliman (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
I just wanted to make a small point at this time that for both Zata and Romerito, using language like "I dont' know about usa but in spain they do bla bla bla" or "are INSIDERS allowed to break the rules of compas" etc. That type of mind set is opening the door for "ok if you are SPANISH", or deeper "if you are gitano or andaluz" or whatever predjudice, you are IN compas even when you are not. That is no good IMO. I am just pointing it out at this time, not really saying anything, it just has that extra meaning using that type of language, from my POV.
“Politically correct” is nice, but irrelevant in flamenco circles. Like it or not, Spain is not the US, and singers and guitarists here act and react in a specific and observable way. Learning compás before you know how to count is very different from what foreigners have to go through.
It’s not that “insiders are allowed to break the rules of compás”; it’s the very *definition* of compás that differs. I’ve been harping for years on “drop the numbers, compás is a pulse”. Music made by humans (as opposed to machines) breathes, which is why flamenco recorded to a click-track sounds sterile.
When a Spanish flamenco says someone has great compás, they do not mean the person never does 11 beats, or 13 beats. What’s being referred to is the interpreter’s ability to do artistic things in an absolutely natural way without disrupting the pulse. Think Diego Carrasco. Fosforito by contrast, has a rather mechanical approach to compás, and no one could ever accuse him of being out of compás. But he is not known, event by ardent followers, for his compás.
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Estela Zatania
www.deflamenco.com
www.expoflamenco.com
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Date Feb. 15 2008 20:31:19
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Ricardo
Posts: 14824
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Norman Kliman (in reply to NormanKliman)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: NormanKliman
Hi Ricardo,
Here's the URL for the half-compás study:
http://www.ctv.es/USERS/norman/mediocompas.htm
Great! THanks Norman! I listen to them all. IMO, THAT is how it should always be done. Probably you should give a clear example in the beginning the MORE typcial way it is done, you know the C7-F goes on the 1,2,3 count and feel rather than all these half compas add ons. But honestly I don't get why that caught on so much more than the half compas. After hearing all those examples back to back, perhaps the guitarists in Jerez like Morao, just thought it was cooler to do that 1,2,3 ending, and stuck too it. I just know that I would be too scared to do that half compas ending for a singer in performance, but obviously it was ok to do it long ago. I will point out that some of those examples were going into the bulerias ending, or WERE meant to be bulerias because it was the last letra, and yeah alot of the examples were the "prima de me alma" tag on. I like the Cepero example because some one is doing palmas, in 12's not bulerias, and they go right with the guitar in half compas, and then repeat it! So it was not only deliberate, but they knew it was going to happen IMO. Great example!
Thanks again.
quote:
“Politically correct” is nice, but irrelevant in flamenco circles. Like it or not, Spain is not the US, and singers and guitarists here act and react in a specific and observable way.
Hmm. Like it or not, there actually exist people that can play in compas that are not from spain.  I am not saying all things are equal, just that on a global internet forum, no need to constantly point out that Spanish people have a privileged position when it comes to learning flamenco; that is obvious.
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Date Feb. 16 2008 3:17:06
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