modern vs traditional flamenco!!

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Ahmed Flamenco

Posts: 163
Joined: Feb. 22 2014
From: Egypt

modern vs traditional flamenco!!

What is the difference between modern and traditional flamenco music and guitars?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 13 2015 13:15:15

Stu

Posts: 2537
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: modern vs traditional flamenco!! (in reply to Ahmed Flamenco)

errr this

traditional -

VS

Modern -

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 13 2015 16:33:53

BarkellWH

Posts: 3459
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: modern vs traditional flamenco!! (in reply to Stu)

Good post, Stu. Reminds me once again why I prefer "traditional" (Sabicas, in particular, although Nino Ricardo is hard to beat) over "modern." At least Diego del Morao did not have a flute, a harmonica, or a bass.

Bill

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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 13 2015 21:15:27

DavRom

Posts: 310
Joined: Jul. 16 2015
From: De camino a Sevilla

RE: modern vs traditional flamenco!! (in reply to BarkellWH)

quote:

At least Diego del Morao did not have a flute, a harmonica, or a bass

is a ukulele ok?

or do i need a Conde to be for real pure flamenco?

i don't think it's about the instruments (tools). isn't it about the music itself?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 13 2015 21:45:47

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3431
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: modern vs traditional flamenco!! (in reply to Ahmed Flamenco)

Modern flamenco guitar has a more varied harmonic vocabulary than traditional. More chords are used by modern. Melodic patterns are more varied in modern.

Modern flamenco guitar uses more syncopation than traditional: modern shifts the accent more often from the "standard" compas than traditional.

Some traditional palos have pretty much fallen out of use in modern solo flamenco guitar.

I have little experience with "modern" guitars, but my impression is that they have less bass and sustain than those of the 1960s and 1970s, or the few great ones I have played from the 1930s-1940s. I think this reflects the more complex harmony and greater frequency of notes in modern.

But what is modern and what is traditional depends on which time period you are talking about. In 1962 at the club Zambra in New York City, I fell into casual conversation with a Spaniard. I mentioned Sabicas with some enthusiasm. Sabicas showed up fairly often for after hours juergas. The Spaniard said he would rather hear Fernando Sirvent, Zambra's house guitarist. Sabicas "played too many notes."

Stu's and Bill's "traditional" was "modern" in 1962. If flamenco continues as a living art, today's "modern" will eventually become tomorrow's "traditional."

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 13 2015 23:16:19

BarkellWH

Posts: 3459
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: modern vs traditional flamenco!! (in reply to DavRom)

quote:

is a ukulele ok? or do i need a Conde to be for real pure flamenco? i don't think it's about the instruments (tools). isn't it about the music itself?

As one who prefers "traditional" flamenco, I would not suggest a ukulele, and you are assuming a lot by asking if one needs a Conde. I have never owned a Conde, although I have nothing against them. I am perfectly happy with my Gerundino, as well as a couple of others I own, including a Manuel Adalid Viviana blanca.

To say you "don't think it's about the instruments (tools)." And then ask "Isn't it about the music itself?" is a non-sequitur. The instruments (tools), in large part, determine how the music sounds. Big difference in flamenco played on a guitar by a competent tocaor alone, or perhaps with a cajon, and flamenco backed by a flute and a bass. Yes, it is about the music itself, and if your cup of tea is flamenco with other, non-traditional instruments as part of it, have at it, my friend. But don't expect others to necessarily share your taste. All I'm doing is responding to Stu's posted videos of Nino Ricardo and Diego del Morao and sharing my taste. I'm not asking you or anyone else to agree with it.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 13 2015 23:18:13

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: modern vs traditional flamenco!! (in reply to Ahmed Flamenco)

I've got a good food anology for what's flamenco. Let's go with tacos.
It's got a corn tortilla and it's got meat, it's a taco!
It's got corn tortilla, meat, onion, cilantro, and salsa, still a taco!
It's got a flour tortilla meat, onion, cilantro, and salsa, Hmmmmm, some may say taco but gringa is probably more correct.
It's got corn tortilla and meat but it's rolled and fried..... Taco dorado...
Corn tortilla, meat, broccoli, oyster sauce, and skittles....not a taco where I come from.

At what point is it no longer a taco?? Tough to say exactly, depends on who you ask, although I'd say I trust a random Mexicans opinion more than a random Minnesotan, and a Mexican chef even more than a random Mexican.
One thing's for sure.
Corn tortilla and meat is a PURE taco.

I want a taco......

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 13 2015 23:24:34

BarkellWH

Posts: 3459
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: modern vs traditional flamenco!! (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

quote:

Stu's and Bill's "traditional" was "modern" in 1962. If flamenco continues as a living art, today's "modern" will eventually become tomorrow's "traditional."

the terms "traditional" and "modern" are dependent upon the era in which one is making the distinction. But, given that framework, they are useful in carrying the discussion forward, and I think most can reasonably agree on what is meant by them.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 13 2015 23:26:13

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: modern vs traditional flamenco!! (in reply to Ahmed Flamenco)

The melodic lines are much more straight forward in traditional flamenco.

The modern playing requires more attention from the listener and you can discover new lines each time you listen to it.

Some players are good at making everything flow effortlessly, others end up sounding like a bunch of distinct falsetas crammed togheter with no attention to voice leading.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 13 2015 23:31:20

BarkellWH

Posts: 3459
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: modern vs traditional flamenco!! (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

quote:

Some traditional palos have pretty much fallen out of use in modern solo flamenco guitar.

I really regret that no one performs zambra anymore, something Sabicas did with a masterful touch.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 14 2015 2:24:23

BarkellWH

Posts: 3459
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: modern vs traditional flamenco!! (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

It's got a corn tortilla and it's got meat, it's a taco!

But to be a real taco, true to its origins, it must be shredded beef, not ground beef, not even carne asado! And you're on the mark about corn tortillas. Flour tortillas are so bland I don't know why anyone would eat them when corn tortillas are available.

Although an Anglo, my mother grew up in Mexico and only came to the States when she was 16. (My grandfather was superintendent of the Union Pacific Railroad in Mexico, based near Guaymas, until the railroads and oil companies were nationalized in the 1930s and they moved to the U.S.) As a result, I had the good fortune of growing up in a bi-lingual household, and the even greater good fortune of having tacos for dinner every Sunday evening, fixed with loving care by my mother in true Mexican fashion.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 14 2015 2:41:51

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: modern vs traditional flamenco!! (in reply to Ahmed Flamenco)

ideally a meat from somewhere fun like the cows head.

First thing I ate when I got back from a month in Spain was a big ol language burrito. Mmmmmmmm

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 14 2015 3:49:08

estebanana

Posts: 9367
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: modern vs traditional flamenco!! (in reply to Ahmed Flamenco)

It's funny you use tacos as an analogy. The Spanish don't know anything about Mexican food. Every time I saw a place in Spain that was supposedly a Mexican restaurant the food looked like a bag of corn chips spread over a plate of Boston baked beans.

I remember buying hand made corn tortillas when I was a child. We went to the Mexican market on the West side of town on Sunday mornings. Ladies were making tortillas fresh with masa they made. We bought a paper bag full and ate one on the way home. Then we ate them for dinner with rice, beans & steak or something. Typical Mexican Sunday dinner.

I have three half sisters who are part Spanish, their paternal grandmother was from Andalucia, from a cattle ranching family. Her story is very romantic and very sad. I remember her when I was a child, she did not speak the same as other Mexicans. She did not look Mexican, yet when I was little I was told she was from Mexico. When I went to Spain as an adult I realized that her speech was Andaluz and how she spoke English was colored and shaped by that. Eventually I asked my mom about my sisters grandmother based on my realizing she spoke non Mexican Spanish. Then my mom told me this short, but sad story that filled in what I was not told as a child.

Sometimes a taco is, just not a taco.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 14 2015 4:37:17

Blondie#2

Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 14 2010

RE: modern vs traditional flamenco!! (in reply to BarkellWH)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
I really regret that no one performs zambra anymore, something Sabicas did with a masterful touch.

Hey I do!

Played one at a gig last Tuesday.

Richard's answer above pretty nails it for me, with the addition that typical tempo and timing for some palos has changed eg trad solea faster than modern solea, Tangos a lot more 'square'/metronomical these days but these generalisations of course.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 14 2015 7:24:34

Stu

Posts: 2537
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: modern vs traditional flamenco!! (in reply to Blondie#2)

Yeah these terms modern and traditional are odd. I posted those two vids. To highlight that this is the perception of "the differences between modern and traditional" (whilst they are obviously different and there are different elements and trends present)

However one could argue that this version of modern and traditional is only the 'performance and presentation' of modern and traditional.
I mean as well as the musical differences there's all the cultural differences that surround it. Traditional has fixed camera and theyre wearing suits. Modern had whacky angles, special Camera tricks and casual clothes. (When did you last see a flamenco guitarist wearing a tuxedo?)

These are perhaps obvious differences but I guess my point is it's not just about the music.

I guess the more accurate terms would be current and past perhaps. Or something. .....
But yeah that video of Nino Ricardo is from the fifties or whatever but that's our current perception of traditional. I'm guessing traditional flamenco in that era (when that was modern) was wildly different.

You might prefer one or the other but every musical genre is always evolving. And if it wasn't we'd probably wanna blast our brains out.

Can't type any more my phone is freaking out

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 14 2015 10:05:04

estebanana

Posts: 9367
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: modern vs traditional flamenco!! (in reply to Ahmed Flamenco)

Ahmed,

If you can read through the document I posted in the luthery section called: "The Orgins of the Modern Guitar" I think it would give you a very good back history of the guitar.

If any of the language seems unclear or difficult to understand I would be happy to help you read through it. I think this essay will tell you more about the guitar itself than any one person on the foro could explain.

Modern vs traditional is always relative to what time we are in. And what is traditional is also currently in practice. If I had to say there was one thing that separates modern guitars from what came before it would be the introduction of the nylon string.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 14 2015 11:13:33

Ricardo

Posts: 14833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: modern vs traditional flamenco!! (in reply to Ahmed Flamenco)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ahmed Flamenco

What is the difference between modern and traditional flamenco music and guitars?

The guitar (instrument) has no significant difference. The recording technology and methods of engineering a recording or performance have changed the final sound a bit. All things equal, the only distinction is the rhythmic style. Often the traditional voicings (guitar chords/harmonies) are "masked" by the sophisticated rhythms and dynamics, or other performance setting details, and the unfair lable of "jazzy" is used to describe modern flamenco guitar to distinguish it form older traditional styles. Paco de Lucia, and those of his generation, were among the first to push the idea of changing up the the rhythm a lot. He did on his second and third solo guitar records (and on some cante discs) in very subtle ways. It is safe to say that the mid 70's draws the line between decidedly "traditional" flamenco with "modern" flamenco...which continues to evolve, but I would say much slower since the early 1990's.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 14 2015 18:09:34

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: modern vs traditional flamenco!! (in reply to BarkellWH)

quote:

I really regret that no one performs zambra anymore, something Sabicas did with a masterful touch.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 14 2015 18:20:58

DavRom

Posts: 310
Joined: Jul. 16 2015
From: De camino a Sevilla

RE: modern vs traditional flamenco!! (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

... the unfair lable of "jazzy" is used to describe modern flamenco guitar to distinguish it form older traditional styles.

that's the sense I get, that just because "modern" flamenco guitarists have been stretching the harmonic palette their music is not pure flamenco or even flamenco at all

that's why i started the thread "what is flamenco today?"

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 14 2015 23:12:57

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: modern vs traditional flamenco!! (in reply to Ahmed Flamenco)

Nice one Mark!!! Ole!!

quote:

That's the sense I get, that just because "modern" flamenco guitarists have been stretching the harmonic palette their music is not pure flamenco or even flamenco at all

Nah, all modern flamenco guitarists can and do play flamenco and arguably better than ever before. It's just they're all under pressure to make a living so they make poppy rumbaesk cheesy espanol music to sell records.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 14 2015 23:18:36

Cervantes

Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA

RE: modern vs traditional flamenco!! (in reply to Pimientito)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pimientito

quote:

I really regret that no one performs zambra anymore, something Sabicas did with a masterful touch.

I love this one, currently trying to tab it out:

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Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco
very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 14 2015 23:26:21

DavRom

Posts: 310
Joined: Jul. 16 2015
From: De camino a Sevilla

RE: modern vs traditional flamenco!! (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

It's just they're all under pressure to make a living so they make poppy rumbaesk cheesy espanol music to sell records.

so you're saying all the great modern flamencos are compromising their art?

that's a flaming statement

i don't think Gerardo, Vicente, Antonio etc. would take kindly to that, not to mention Paco if he were still alive

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 14 2015 23:32:32

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: modern vs traditional flamenco!! (in reply to Ahmed Flamenco)

I don't think so, because when they choose to play flamenco it's absolutely incredible. They conciously make poppy stuff to sell records, I'm sure Vicente would be the first to tell you Roma isn't a flamenco song. He'd just say it's a guitar song.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 14 2015 23:43:31

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: modern vs traditional flamenco!! (in reply to DavRom)

quote:

so you're saying all the great modern flamencos are compromising their art?

The real question should be "who isn't?"

Everything looks pretty when an artist/band has made a name for himself but even to get there, lots of concessions have to be made... specially after it becomes a job.

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"Ya no me conoce el sol, porque yo duermo de dia"

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 14 2015 23:45:06

DavRom

Posts: 310
Joined: Jul. 16 2015
From: De camino a Sevilla

RE: modern vs traditional flamenco!! (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

...when they choose to play flamenco it's absolutely incredible.

i find that when they choose to play guitar and write/record music it's absolutely incredible

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 14 2015 23:45:13

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: modern vs traditional flamenco!! (in reply to DavRom)

quote:

i find that when they choose to play guitar it's absolutely incredible

Yeah, that usually happens when you're a kid with lots of free time in your hands. Then you grow up and have bills to pay.

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"Ya no me conoce el sol, porque yo duermo de dia"

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 14 2015 23:47:46

DavRom

Posts: 310
Joined: Jul. 16 2015
From: De camino a Sevilla

RE: modern vs traditional flamenco!! (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

lots of concessions have to be made... specially after it becomes a job

wow!

you peeps are so CyNicaL

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 14 2015 23:47:51

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: modern vs traditional flamenco!! (in reply to DavRom)

I am having an honest conversation about how things are vs how we all would like them to be.

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"Ya no me conoce el sol, porque yo duermo de dia"

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 14 2015 23:49:52