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Planting thumb during arps on (mostly) bass strings
I understand the following rules generally apply to arpeggios:
1) If you're playing arps with some combination of i, m, and a, then you should plant your thumb on the next string up (if available).
2) If you're playing arps on the bass strings, then you should plant your thumb somewhere on the soundboard above the strings.
Here's my question:
Suppose you're playing a-m-i arps on the A, D, and G strings. Does it matter whether you plant your thumb on the E string or on the soundboard just above the E string? If so, why?
Posts: 14841
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Planting thumb during arps on (m... (in reply to machopicasso)
quote:
Suppose you're playing a-m-i arps on the A, D, and G strings. Does it matter whether you plant your thumb on the E string or on the soundboard just above the E string? If so, why?
Context will dictate (what comes NEXT in the music in terms of string groups), but if it just stays there, it doesn't matter at all, whatever feels more comfortable.
RE: Planting thumb during arps on (m... (in reply to machopicasso)
I'm going to put a few questions out there relevant to the techniques your describing in this thread OP.
I was wondering where the exceptions are when playing arps on the Bottom 3 E/B/G strings specifically concerning the planting of the thumb after striking the D string.
Say a down to up arp E B G playing with the thumb on the bass strings D A D for example , you would keep the pulgar to the side and continue to execute the arp notes with the planted fingers just after striking the D string without planting back on the A right?
If that is correct does it apply the same to the full arp down up? Or would you plant the thumb back on A after striking D and before executing the 6 arp notes?
One more question in the nature of arps , what do you guys when it comes to playing some arps primarily only on the bottom 3 strings , is P I M the way to go or is their also another way?
RE: Planting thumb during arps on (m... (in reply to machopicasso)
quote:
One more question in the nature of arps , what do you guys when it comes to playing some arps primarily only on the bottom 3 strings , is P I M the way to go or is their also another way?
I'll answer the one I comprehend easily :)
Doing P I M is a completely different sound characteristic then doing I M A I know a Solea falseta that calls for a phrase to be played the first time I M A and the exact same phrase a second time played P I M. It sounds different, thumbs are huge!
RE: Planting thumb during arps on (m... (in reply to withinity)
I'm no expert. But you're thinking about it too much. Shut your eyes and feel that your thumb is pulled by a magnet onto 'something'.
Getting the thumb 'right' makes it all possible. Get the 'feel' on super easy patterns. Leave out tough stuff. I'm finding the thumb dictates arps and tremolo. I could do those techniques 'classically' quite well but the flamenco way is simply genius. It is a sure path to great ease and freedom. And it should be impossible.
The previous guy said it. Concentrate on the sound and it will lead you. I am unlearning a pussy thumb technique and have found that a general 'approach' is effective. Instead of coming upon each new nuance one's thumb just blasts through it. Then it's easier to pull back and watch how your subconscious solved it.
Thousands of hours will do it if you truly 'relax'. A good setup makes it all much easier also. I never look at my right hand. Once in a while I look in a mirror and I can see the difference in control.
Sounds daft but try shutting your eyes. Don't force your thumb. Try it lots of ways. Play it and plant your thumb in the 'wrong' places and your bonce will map it all. Be patient. Relax and listen. Once it comes you will feel it. Then the harder patterns won't feel hard any more. Just up and a d down an down and up, anything. Don't even play chords. Mute the strings and listen. It's a long road, and it will not be fooled. But it is sure.
RE: Planting thumb during arps on (m... (in reply to z6)
Sorry. It's the same with picado. And it was Lenador. His explanation is, to me, correct. We all struggle with this stuff but deconstructing it in order to rebuild doesn't capture it. I have to emphasize that my experience involves trying to turn my thumb into a wad of wood connected directly to my shoulder.
Also, playing with the arm right off the guitar at all times seems to sort the thumb for me, across all techniques. (Although it felt weird at first, it seems to deliver solutions that lead to ease and capabilities that 'appear' of themselves.)
It is many hours but I use those techniques to relax me. I had it the wrong way round before.
And be ambitious. Don't settle for a lesser sound than the one that can give you shivers. It's in every single note, every nuance, as Aoleus might have it. But the 'technical structure' required to do that seems to exist 'upstream' at a higher level of order.
(All of the above is 100% dependent on nail shape, for me. And I have 'experimented' for thirty years before getting to some simple fundamental requirements.)
Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
RE: Planting thumb during arps on (m... (in reply to machopicasso)
The idea of resting thumb is to add overall stability and accuracy and kind of a feeling that "attaches" your right hand to the strings/guitar and makes it a natural part of it. Once you understand the concept, you can find out everything else yourself and don't have to try to learn by heart. You will then automatically do the right thing with your thumb and combine most economical, most stable, most comfortable, best sound, etc. There is no strict single rule where and when you rest it.
The important thing has already been mentioned but is kind of ignored:
It depends on the situation and what was before and what comes next and sometimes the speed.
Maybe an example which matches the OPs question (thumb, A,D,G) will help. I uploaded few seconds of a buleria intro (hope encuentro doesn't screw my account because of these few seconds)
Just watch this and you will understand why he sometimes even rests the thumb on the soundboard, not only when playing G,D,A, but also B,G,D etc. (simply because he then plays E and A Bass strings with thumb and the resting on soundboard is the logical consequence and best solution).
Now for instance if you are going to play E (thumb), A,D,G (arp) and then immediately a picado on a treble string or something, you might want to rest the thumb on the E string. Again, it depends on the SITUATION (what was before it, was comes next, how much time you have, etc.)
That said, i know some very good players who don't do much resting at all (probably also with some classical guitar background or E-guitar players). They simply got used to it and i feel like it wasn't "worth" it for them to change the habbit just because it was supposed to be that way. Jason McGuire is an example. His thumb sometimes flies over the soundboard, but nobody can say it is "wrong", since his playing kicks arse anyway. The accuracy comes from other aspects of playing and years of playing and is kind of "compensated" through other things....
I personally changed the habbit and found the resting beneficial and would recommand it.
RE: Planting thumb during arps on (m... (in reply to withinity)
quote:
I'm going to put a few questions out there relevant to the techniques your describing in this thread OP.
I was wondering where the exceptions are when playing arps on the Bottom 3 E/B/G strings specifically concerning the planting of the thumb after striking the D string.
Say a down to up arp E B G playing with the thumb on the bass strings D A D for example , you would keep the pulgar to the side and continue to execute the arp notes with the planted fingers just after striking the D string without planting back on the A right?
If that is correct does it apply the same to the full arp down up? Or would you plant the thumb back on A after striking D and before executing the 6 arp notes?
One more question in the nature of arps , what do you guys when it comes to playing some arps primarily only on the bottom 3 strings , is P I M the way to go or is their also another way?
I am a noob.
I was gonna reply that it's really important to not just listen to lots of flamenco, but to watch a lot too, especially if you don't have a flamenco guitar teacher that you can watch.
Watch your favourite players, watch players with a good reputation for good technique, read up on their background and how they learned, and who from etc. (this will help you understand why they do what they do), as there are lots of personal variations and idiosyncrasies.
and then I see the Chicuelo vid. Good place to start!
RE: Planting thumb during arps on (m... (in reply to machopicasso)
Lenador
Thanks for clearing that up , i came across a couple simple falseta's in a book/audio that had sections playing those bottom 3 strings P,I,M it was the first time i had encountered a thing like that and it made me wounder about the technique and how frequently it was used or whether such sections were still played using that technique.
Z6
I'm not sure who your addressing.
MarkIndigo
I have kind of non intentionally isolated myself from every other genre of music since I started seriously practicing so naturally yes I do listen and watch many guitarists.
I am liking Diego Del Gastor very much at the moment though I'm open minded towards all Flamenco, the new and the old can be both beautiful or mediocre.
That video does not really help what i was trying to get across though
RE: Planting thumb during arps on (m... (in reply to withinity)
quote:
MarkIndigo
I have kind of non intentionally isolated myself from every other genre of music since I started seriously practicing so naturally yes I do listen and watch many guitarists.
I am liking Diego Del Gastor very much at the moment though I'm open minded towards all Flamenco, the new and the old can be both beautiful or mediocre.
That video does not really help what i was trying to get across though
I didn't mean watch guitarists in other genres, I meant watch flamenco guitarists.
The answers to many "how is this done?" questions are easily found by studying videos of (flamenco) guitarists playing.
When you ask if a passage should be played with this or that fingering, or if the thumb rested here or there, the best thing is to watch the guy that made it up to see how he does it!
Next best is to ask someone else who plays that falseta how they do it (although they might do it their own way, differently), or watch a vid of the guy who made it up playing it.
RE: Planting thumb during arps on (m... (in reply to withinity)
You're not sure who I'm addressing?
I'm addressing Paco. I thought maybe if he was looking in he could get a few pointers on what to do with one's thumb if it's either stuck in the wrong place or it doesn't know where to go.
I could be all wrong. I am I am. But you could always invite your thumb to a romantic dinner. You never know where that could lead.
Are you the same guy who asked about tremolo and then got miffed because he could do it sometimes, maybe? You know, if only it were more consistent?
RE: Planting thumb during arps on (m... (in reply to machopicasso)
Sorry man i didn't mean to be rude, but that's not me who asked about the tremolo.
I agree with what you said in your above posts , i have had similar findings and i don't consider it daft to close your eyes it happens to me frequently , though i think one of my biggest problems at this point is that i haven't been able to keep an ideal set of nails at all times.
I haven't played much in front of mirrors though i am planning to incorporate one into my setup.
I like your thumb magnet analogy, as i learn more techniques i am getting a much better understanding of the thumb, it is currently what i use the most along with Rasguedos and recently some arpeggios i got the hang of.
I wont settle for less z6 believe me , for a long while i did not have the dexterity in my hands or the familiarity with some fingerings on the fretboard so it was difficult to keep the Rhythm but now i can play where thumb rasguedo and some arpeggios in Rhythm.
All that being said my techniques are not refined enough and until they become second nature I'm going to collect all the coins before going to the next level if you know what i mean haha which is why I'm not very interested in playing much picado for the moment and tremolo is a slow progression for me so far.
Anyway thanks for the thoughtful responses you sent to my initial post , all the best.
RE: Planting thumb during arps on (m... (in reply to withinity)
quote:
ORIGINAL: withinity
How can i edit who i'm addressing my post to?
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