The More Simple Something Sounds the More Subtle Sound Solutions Seem

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guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

The More Simple Something Sounds the...

So I have been trying to get into Gypsy Jazz (Django Rheinhardt style) for the last few years.

The more I liten the more I am amazed at the rhythm guitarists. Basically a two beat boom chick with very few bells and whistles. At first I thought the difficulty would be the enormous amount of chords and harmonic awareness needed (and I am struggling with this). But that old boom chick aint as simple as it seems.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 2 2013 12:39:23

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: The More Simple Something Sounds... (in reply to guitarbuddha)

Visually it may seem like there are lots of chords in that genre but from what I've heard, the harmonic progression is very simple, they just change chord voicings while a chord is going on to accomodate different notes within the same chord structure.

As for the rhythm (and without having played this particular video), you'll have to be able to feel different levels of muting with your left hand.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 2 2013 12:57:35

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: The More Simple Something Sounds... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rui Martins

Visually it may seem like there are lots of chords in that genre but from what I've heard, the harmonic progression is very simple, they just change chord voicings while a chord is going on to accomodate different notes within the same chord structure.

As for the rhythm (and without having played this particular video), you'll have to be able to feel different levels of muting with your left hand.

For sure thats all true.

The right hand mostly goes boom chick, thats the hard part. Nowhere to hide at all.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 2 2013 13:06:29

Ricardo

Posts: 14825
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: The More Simple Something Sounds... (in reply to guitarbuddha)

More than just THIS genre, you can safely say rhythm guitar is the back bone of EVERY style of music involving guitar. (except classical guitar of course). Every virtuoso of any genre is also an excellent accompanist it seems. And if you ever work with a great rhythm guitarist, it suddenly becomes annoying to deal with mediocre rhythm players.

Ricardo

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 2 2013 15:14:40

Flamencito

Posts: 334
Joined: Oct. 31 2012
From: The Netherlands

RE: The More Simple Something Sounds... (in reply to guitarbuddha)

I am accompanying a guy lately in this style.. A bit in my own way though, but we are having lots of fun (most of the times). I agree that there are quite some songs with easy chord progressions ( like minor swing). The muting thing is really nice to play around with as the rhythm player, cause you can create great dynamics by muting more and less. I think you will need to play this kind of music with others though to be able to enjoy it. But well i am not experienced in this (or any) style anyway...

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Hola Caracola

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 2 2013 16:17:56

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: The More Simple Something Sounds... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

More than just THIS genre, you can safely say rhythm guitar is the back bone of EVERY style of music involving guitar. (except classical guitar of course).

Every virtuoso of any genre is also an excellent accompanist it seems. And if you ever work with a great rhythm guitarist, it suddenly becomes annoying to deal with mediocre rhythm players.

Ricardo

I split that in two. The second half I can really get behind. One of my pet hates is swing rhythm players or drummers who play ropey 'gypsy rumba', feels like dancing with a malfunctioning robot.

The first half well Richard you are a naughty boy trying to provoke me and playing to the galleries. But all joking aside I find that the real classical guitar Virtuosi are excellent accompanists, accompanying the melody sensitively and interacting with it.

I am certainly taking a lot more pride in my straight rhythm guitar than I ever did before. As always close listening and a respectful attitude are the best approach to any style. I try and ditch the shallow epithets as they are just a way of hiding from my own inadequacies. When I was twenty I thought I was better than Keith Richards, now I am less sure.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 2 2013 16:39:19

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: The More Simple Something Sounds... (in reply to Flamencito)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flamencito

I think you will need to play this kind of music with others though to be able to enjoy it.

It took me a long long time to realise the full implications of that.

I think that jazz can't really be improvised on a solo guitar, the more I get into it the more I realise that.

The muting is definately importand in lots of styles. Even in fingerstyle, lots LH muting in bossa nova style. Some dude uploades a bossa style piece a month or so ago and although the tempos was bright (about 187) it sounded kinda lacklustre because there weren't any ghost notes or enough variety of attack and RH muting or any left hand muting at all. It was nicely recorded and neat though so maybe that's all that counts.

D.
D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 2 2013 16:47:18

chester

Posts: 891
Joined: Oct. 29 2010

RE: The More Simple Something Sounds... (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

I think that jazz can't really be improvised on a solo guitar, the more I get into it the more I realise that.

Oh yeah? Tell that to this guy:

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 2 2013 17:38:13

chester

Posts: 891
Joined: Oct. 29 2010

RE: The More Simple Something Sounds... (in reply to guitarbuddha)

Or this guy:

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 2 2013 17:47:33

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: The More Simple Something Sounds... (in reply to chester)

Here is the whole seminar which I posted a few weeks ago here.

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=82617&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=modal%2Cmusic&tmode=&smode=&s=#235963

I won't be telling him as I am not a spiritualist.

I really don't think you know quite where I am coming from. But you sure are good at making assumptions.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 2 2013 17:54:24

Guest

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 2 2013 17:54:32

Guest

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 2 2013 17:56:38

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: The More Simple Something Sounds... (in reply to Guest)

I've watched all of his lessons online and find him fascinating.

Also some of his pages from private lessons have been fleshed out in standard notation and there is a guy called Tim Lerch who plays through them on youtube.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 2 2013 17:57:45

chester

Posts: 891
Joined: Oct. 29 2010

RE: The More Simple Something Sounds... (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

I really don't think you know quite where I am coming from. But you sure are good at making assumptions.

Easy buddy. Just refuting the line I quoted from you - nothing personal. No reason to get huffy.

quote:

Anyone who has not got a copy of "Chord Chemistry" is missing out.

I love picking some random voicings out and going on a musical journey. I've had the book for over five years and I still pick up things from every re-read (despite the short chapters). Definitely a must-have for any guitarist who's interested in harmony.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 2 2013 18:02:05

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: The More Simple Something Sounds... (in reply to guitarbuddha)

Depends I guess what you mean by solo. My sister had a Jack Teagarden record and they had a rhythm guitarist who did his solo turn chordal style.
In this video You can hear Oscar Moore comping in the old style when he with not giving out with single string riffs. Electric guitar of course. Oscar was a great player but ended his days a bricklayer as apparently the market for jazz guitar player dried up.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 2 2013 18:07:27

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: The More Simple Something Sounds... (in reply to chester)

Modern Chord Voicings is good too.

Some of Teds old pupils have posted videos of his lessons online and they are well worth going through.

What I mean by jazz isn't what Martin Taylor does or Tuck Andress or Ted or Tal Farlowe or George Barnes does. I don't disregard them though.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 2 2013 18:09:45

chester

Posts: 891
Joined: Oct. 29 2010

RE: The More Simple Something Sounds... (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

What I mean by jazz isn't what Martin Taylor does or Tuck Andress or Ted or Tal Farlowe or George Barnes does.

You're talking more Art Blakey? Coz that's definitely not possible on a nylon string.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 2 2013 18:29:16

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: The More Simple Something Sounds... (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aeolus

Depends I guess what you mean by solo

It's more what I mean by Jazz. Nat can do it because he can sustain a chord in the LH and play lines above it based on a substitute chord to the one that is sounding.

Ted and the others can simulate this in a preorganised arrangement. But the whole point of the Bach improvisation was to realise the original chord sequence in the melody. It was a baroque improvisation, not a jazz one. Based on a French Chanson in the Vienese style of Schubert.

Guitarists can certainly improvise jazz with a band, Ivor Mairans't comments on Oscar Moore are enlightening although he had some flash.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 2 2013 18:30:41

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: The More Simple Something Sounds... (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

Guitarists can certainly improvise jazz with a band, Ivor Mairans't comments on Oscar Moore are enlightening although he had some flash.

Which Volume is this in. I'd like to buy it. I was a fan of Oscar even buying his album of solos but I discovered the steel strings split those lines on my fingers. Whatever they are called. So I switched to nylon.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 2 2013 18:55:14

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: The More Simple Something Sounds... (in reply to aeolus)

'The Great Jazz guitarists Vol1' Published by Sanctuary.

It is a notation only book (no tab) which I really like as I don't buy more paper than I have to.

Page 127/128 sweet Georia Brown. Mairants is quite cutting about Moore's taste. But the two volume collection has lots great historical transcriptions (slightly erratic rhythmic notation aside) including lots of chord melody. If you love old shool jazz guitar then the first volume is chock a block with Eddie Lang et al. Second volume kicks off with Tal Farlowe and includes great stuff up to and including Martin Taylor.

Mairants includes historical notes which are fascinating on all players covered. Also breif analysis of solos which is impenetrably banal and pointless. Great value all in all.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 2 2013 19:46:33

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: The More Simple Something Sounds... (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

Mairants is quite cutting about Moore's taste.

Yeah, well...he was good enough for Nat Cole so...

Far be it from me to venture an opinion but this bit I discovered adds a little to the story.
http://www.classicjazzguitar.com/artists/artists_page.jsp?artist=20

Being a native Texan, I can only wonder about how a black in Texas then could make his way. He and his brother were given the gift of music.

thanks for the info...I'll order the book.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 2 2013 20:52:40

Guest

RE: The More Simple Something Sounds... (in reply to guitarbuddha)

George van eps wrote a three volume series called 'harmonic mechanisms for guitar'
A huge and complete volume of work and well worth a glimpse although presented in a dry methodical way
these books take it to another level again in a methodical and consise way using standard notation and complete analysis in major, harmonic and melodic minor harmony and voice leading
More than anyone can get through in a lifetime but an excellent resource even if taking a tiny bit out of the first volume..

Another great resourcse is Barry Galbraiths 'Comping'

http://www.melbay.com/Products/CategoryCenter/G30!GB7/george-van-eps.aspx

http://www.jazzbooks.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=JAJAZZ&Product_Code=BG3#.UdN3u2Qayc0

quote:

bells and whistles

I'm still not hearing them.,, must be the phrase of the week.,,

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 3 2013 1:05:03

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: The More Simple Something Sounds... (in reply to Guest)

Cheers Val. I've got the Galbraith's book (very very dense) and a similar but more simple one from Aebersold. I will try and find the George Van Eps, I have the Eddie Lang book . I have also enjoyed Don Mocks DVD, and there is another interesting one on comping by the excellent Jim Ferguson 'All Blues For Jazz Guitar' which has lots of Freedie Greene style stuff. These days I mostly do excercises around standards moving through twelve keys trying to link chords on the hoof which is makes it less uncomfortable when the sax player decides to play Nuage in Eb. I kinda know a lot of chords but am working on linking them and having a more grounded sense of being in the more unusual keys.

I suppose though I am not getting my point across very well. I was inviting comparison between the two beat gypsy jazz style comping (la Pompe) and im picado. Both seem like the simplest thing in the world. Really though they ain't.

Lots of guys do it in very different ways. Some sound exactly the same some really different but equally good. Some are close but miss some vital ingredient.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 3 2013 8:45:22

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: The More Simple Something Sounds... (in reply to Guest)

Here is a book which actually breaks down the gypsy rhythm style and includes transcriptions of authentic performances.

http://www.djangobooks.com/books/gypsy-rhythm/

Let me know if you would like to 'borrow' it Val.

D.

PS cant find the phrase bells and whistles on this page, have I been overusing it elsewhere ?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 3 2013 9:00:07

Guest

RE: The More Simple Something Sounds... (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

The more I liten the more I am amazed at the rhythm guitarists. Basically a two beat boom chick with very few bells and whistle

......Just the second time this week.. Re the transcribing thread .. Not by you in that case.. Just an odd phrase when used in a musical context ..

to be sure more cowbell...
Thanks for the loan...
Not sure if it was the ayreoff 'django' transcription book which started the analysis with 'Django enjoyed playing with Minors....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 3 2013 9:49:52

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: The More Simple Something Sounds... (in reply to Guest)

Well Val, I got a disease and the only cure is less bells and whistles.

Christoph Walkenofski (gypsy guitarist.)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 3 2013 10:25:51

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: The More Simple Something Sounds... (in reply to guitarbuddha)

Did Van Eps use a tapping technique? I have a distant memory reading about something like that in which he claimed his technique was second only to classical in difficulty. I was going to mention it but thought better of it until I came across this accidentally.

Important only as a test of my memory. ;-)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 4 2013 16:47:28