THE "AVERAGE FLAMENCO LISTENER"

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JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

THE "AVERAGE FLAMENCO LISTENER&...

I was wondering what type of person the "average Flamenco listener" is (if there is such a thing). Spanish or Foreign, old or young, etc.
It just occurred to me that many of the members I have come across on the forum don't seem to be Spanish (Eg. Ron, Jon, Thomas, Cheston, Kate, Simon... I'm sure there are many more). I have to admit that I only know a handful of Spaniards. One of them is about 25 years old, and does not own ANY flamenco albums. I copied her a few and she seems to think they're okay, although she didn't like the cante much. To be honest I think she finds Ricky Martin songs much easier to dance to! Is this why many young people don't seem to listen to Flamenco (or have I got that wrong?). I think most of the people at the PDL concert I went to were actually English and middle aged!
The second Spaniard is about 50 years old, and I mentioned to her that I play a bit of Flamenco guitar. She could only name one Flamenco artist, who was... wait for it...
Manitas De Plata!!!

So... who are the Flamenco aficionados?

Thanks,

James

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 10 2005 14:30:09

Skai

Posts: 317
Joined: Sep. 12 2004

RE: THE "AVERAGE FLAMENCO LISTE... (in reply to JBASHORUN)

In where I stay, quite a number of female Japanese expatriates are into flamenco dancing and maybe singing.

_____________________________

Try some Enrique Iglesias for some great cante.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 10 2005 14:41:24

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

RE: THE "AVERAGE FLAMENCO LISTE... (in reply to Skai)

Cheston, just out of curiosity, how old are you now? I'm guessing you must be one of the forum's youngest members. Are there many other people your age in Singapore into Flamenco?

James

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 10 2005 15:11:35

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: THE "AVERAGE FLAMENCO LISTE... (in reply to JBASHORUN)

I think the stereotype is that hardly any Spaniards know about flamenco, but they all say they do :)

I think it's becoming one of those things like American jazz, which is loved and performed by a whole different class and group of people than who started it. When I was in Seville I did go into a bodega and there were some guys singing por fandangos. I let them use my guitar and they had a great time. On the other hand, I don't think you really will hear any flamenco in Spain unless you know where to go. Random radios seemed to be tuned to Mana or Muzak.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 10 2005 15:19:03

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: THE "AVERAGE FLAMENCO LISTE... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

On the other hand, I don't think you really will hear any flamenco in Spain unless you know where to go

I hear it all the time on car radios here and on tv in the evenings.

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Foro Flamenco founder and Admin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 10 2005 15:40:10

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: THE "AVERAGE FLAMENCO LISTE... (in reply to JBASHORUN)

quote:

I have come across on the forum don't seem to be Spanish

The obvious answer is that this forum is in English

Flamenco is a word known by many but appreciated by far fewer.

_____________________________

Foro Flamenco founder and Admin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 10 2005 15:42:12

Kate

Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía

RE: THE "AVERAGE FLAMENCO LISTE... (in reply to JBASHORUN)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JBASHORUN
So... who are the Flamenco aficionados?
James

Well on this forum we are bound to be foreigners as we only write in English but I have met many many flamenco aficionados here in Spain. Granted I hang out at flamenco clubs and bars and have many friends in the business but this also gives me a chance to look at the audiences. The majority of the audience at a theatre show ( say Jose Merce doing cante as opposed to his more pop flamenco) will be older ( could be to do with ticket prices or that they prefer to sit and be comfortable) but at the Eshavira club you would find groups of younger aficonados listening and keeping compás to flamenco. At an open air free festival of El Capullo the audience was of all ages, families, grandparents, young children. At el Nino's peña you find all the youngsters singing and playing and drinking till the early hours. A few years ago at the Festival de Almanjayar every Gitano in town seemed to be there for El Parilla. Robin Totton mentions in his book that after spending all night at a disco the youngsters in Jerez will go on to a bar and clap palmas till the wee hours, showing how flamenco is not being ignored in favour of modern music but somehow lives alongside it. Robin also talks about how difficult it was for him to find flamenco in Granada which surprised me no end as I had found flamenco on my doorstep, but then again I was living next door to the Peña. Also I am in Andalucía. In Northern Spain or perhaps I should say the rest of Spain I have met very few people who like or know much about flamenco. There is even resentment that the foreign stereotype of a Spaniard is associated with flamenco, ie rose between the teeth and spotted dresses.

Kate

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Emilio Maya Temple
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 10 2005 16:27:50

Kate

Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía

RE: THE "AVERAGE FLAMENCO LISTE... (in reply to JBASHORUN)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JBASHORUN
I mentioned to her that I play a bit of Flamenco guitar. She could only name one Flamenco artist, who was... wait for it...
Manitas De Plata!!!

Last year in Spain they voted David Beckham as the best known Spaniard of 2004, or something like that

Kate

_____________________________

Emilio Maya Temple
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000CA6OBC
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/emiliomaya

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 10 2005 16:30:30

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

RE: THE "AVERAGE FLAMENCO LISTE... (in reply to Kate)

quote:

Last year in Spain they voted David Beckham as the best known Spaniard of 2004, or something like that

Hmmm... yes... now that makes sense!

In fact, I think they actually voted him as their "favorite Spaniard" at the time (if I remember correctly). But either way, he's not really a Spaniard. Probably a better guitarist than Manitas though!

From what you guys are saying it seems that it is mostly Spaniards from the Gitano region that are into Flamenco, so perhaps people from other parts of Spain might not be so keen to embrace it as part of their culture.

By the way Kate, that Totton book you metioned... is that the one called "Song of the Outcasts"?

Thanks,

James

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 10 2005 19:34:01

Guest

RE: THE "AVERAGE FLAMENCO LISTE... (in reply to JBASHORUN)

There are forums of Spanish aficionados, many of whom really know what they are talking about.

Try http://www.tristeyazul.com/cgi-bin/webbbs_config.pl?index

Of course these forums are in Spanish.

Sean

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 10 2005 21:07:23

flyeogh

Posts: 729
Joined: Oct. 13 2004

RE: THE "AVERAGE FLAMENCO LISTE... (in reply to JBASHORUN)

James you raise an interesting issue I think. My adopted Andalucian family in Madrid are fanatical about Sevillanas. In the house they dance, sing and play CDs. But they never talk of seeing flamenco in a theatre or bar (and not one plays a guitar). The family still living near Cadiz are the same. The year before last they had a 5 person group who came and played, danced and sang at a family wedding but in general Sevillanas is just part of life, tradition and something they take I think a bit for granted. But it is evident that the young are just like the old. There is no indication in this family that it is dying out. Two year old Coco already has more rhythm than me (sorry thats no great achievement

)

ps keep us all up-to-date on your course. I bet it will be fascinating and very rewarding.

_____________________________

nigel (el raton de Watford - now Puerto de Santa Maria, Cadiz)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 10 2005 21:47:24

Skai

Posts: 317
Joined: Sep. 12 2004

RE: THE "AVERAGE FLAMENCO LISTE... (in reply to JBASHORUN)

I'm 19 at the moment and no, there aren't any others my age sincerely into flamenco(maybe a few but I don't know). The Jap ladies I mentioned are probably 40+? I did manage to draw one of my school Guitar Ensemble juniors (1 year my junior) into this addictive culture, his nickname is Chansey on this site.

Another guy I know is Steven whom I met online. He posts quite rarely though, probably because of work. He's 20+ I think.

That's all that I know. It's easy to interest people especially during my ensemble practice sessions but keeping people interested is a whole new matter. And as I mentioned, only 1 is still into it a year later. And I'm glad.

Cheston

PS. Chansey if you're reading this, just know that I'm sooooooo thankful to have someone else who'll go round Singapore tryng out guitars and searching for more flamenco.

Hpe you save up enough for your Anders negra soon and let me try it too, I recommended him to you in the first place.

_____________________________

Try some Enrique Iglesias for some great cante.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 10 2005 22:03:36

Kate

Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía

RE: THE "AVERAGE FLAMENCO LISTE... (in reply to JBASHORUN)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JBASHORUN
By the way Kate, that Totton book you metioned... is that the one called "Song of the Outcasts"?
James

Yes that's it. Its a pleasure to read and very informative. And I'm not on commission

Kate

_____________________________

Emilio Maya Temple
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000CA6OBC
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/emiliomaya

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 11 2005 9:22:31

guitartennis

Posts: 29
Joined: Apr. 16 2005

RE: THE "AVERAGE FLAMENCO LISTE... (in reply to JBASHORUN)

Right now I'm 18, and come from perth in western australia. As far as I know theres not much flamenco around here. Listening to paco and coming to this site is about all the flamenco I can get. One day hopefully I'll get to spain.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 11 2005 10:55:45

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

RE: THE "AVERAGE FLAMENCO LISTE... (in reply to flyeogh)

quote:

ps keep us all up-to-date on your course. I bet it will be fascinating and very rewarding.

Will do. My first impressions are that it is very difficult to make guitars and great attention to detail is required. As I told Cheston once, its not until you've actually tried making a guitar that you fully appreciate the ones you already own. And I certainly have much more respect for Anders (and the other luthiers on the forum) as a result of it. Make sure you take care of that "Eliasson Guitar"!!!

Its interesting to see that Flamenco is still alive, and in various places around the world. Singapore, Australia, America, Europe... I think we also have some members from the Middle East.
Its also good to hear that we have members as young as 18 years old on the forum. Although I'd like to see a few more younger people listening to Flamenco. It seems that most youngsters are listening to rap and techno/dance music these days. Speaking from personal experience, much of it was about peer pressure and "being cool", and it takes quite a brave teenager to like something that all your friends don't appreciate.

Now, how can we make Flamenco "cool"?

James

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 11 2005 11:35:57

Kate

Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía

RE: THE "AVERAGE FLAMENCO LISTE... (in reply to JBASHORUN)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JBASHORUN
It seems that most youngsters are listening to rap and techno/dance music these days. Speaking from personal experience, much of it was about peer pressure and "being cool", and it takes quite a brave teenager to like something that all your friends don't appreciate.

James

I have my godson staying with us right now, 22 years old. He's a hip hop producer and has his own studio. Anyway since he has been here I have noticed that he is slowly and efficiently going through our record collection, from Lee Dorsey to Robert Johnson, Aretha to Edith Piaf, Ray Charles, Ike and Tina, John Lee Hooker, Billy Holiday, etc etc

Now I am just waiting for him to get to the flamenco section

Kate

_____________________________

Emilio Maya Temple
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000CA6OBC
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/emiliomaya

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 11 2005 11:42:20

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

RE: THE "AVERAGE FLAMENCO LISTE... (in reply to Kate)

quote:

Now I am just waiting for him to get to the flamenco section

A hip-hop producer, eh? well, lets hope he does get around to the Flamenco section... then we might hear some rap songs with samples of Paco De Lucia in the background. Who knows... "Flamenco-Rap" might even make it into the charts!!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 11 2005 11:57:44

Kate

Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía

RE: THE "AVERAGE FLAMENCO LISTE... (in reply to JBASHORUN)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JBASHORUN
Who knows... "Flamenco-Rap" might even make it into the charts!!!

Check out Tomasito. I first heard of him when Juan Diego came to our studio with Tomasito's latest album. Such fun, crazy lyrics, rap and rock, and very flamenco. I saw a poster saying he is coming to Granada this month. Perhpas I should take my Godson.

Kate

_____________________________

Emilio Maya Temple
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000CA6OBC
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/emiliomaya

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 11 2005 12:49:47

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

RE: THE "AVERAGE FLAMENCO LISTE... (in reply to Kate)

quote:

Check out Tomasito

You mean this album...

https://www.flamenco-world.com/tienda/shop.php?&vshopferca=64a2cd0495862150c74758d1d1d681c6&op_shop=show&id_prod=2821&id_cat=

Kate, I'm generally quite sceptical about mixing Flamenco and Rap. Which is quite strange because I do like modern Flamenco such as Flamenco mixed with Jazz. Maybe its because I find Flamenco so different to Rap, its a bit like "mixing chalk and cheese" as they say. But perhaps I have it all wrong and the two types of music have some things in common. I'm all for making Flamenco popular, but I have to wonder what the great Flamenco artists of the past would think of all this ultra-modernity, and whether they would consider this move toward "coolness" a good thing.

Mind you the album does seem to have positive reviews. Play it to your godson and see if its the start of something interesting.

James

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 11 2005 13:47:46

Kate

Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía

RE: THE "AVERAGE FLAMENCO LISTE... (in reply to JBASHORUN)

That's the one. I've not heard it since that day but remember finding it fun. The comments show that they play this in the discos and give the general idea that its a perfect fusion with great compás. I couldn't play the clips without changing to my OSx set up but will definitely get Godson to have a listen. He's spent enough time with us in the flamenco bars here and loves flamenco compás. His Dad is a professional percussionist and the first thing he did when he got out here was buy his Dad a cajón

Kate

_____________________________

Emilio Maya Temple
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000CA6OBC
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/emiliomaya

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 11 2005 14:15:45

Kate

Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía

RE: THE "AVERAGE FLAMENCO LISTE... (in reply to JBASHORUN)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JBASHORUN
Kate, I'm generally quite sceptical about mixing Flamenco and Rap. Which is quite strange because I do like modern Flamenco such as Flamenco mixed with Jazz. Maybe its because I find Flamenco so different to Rap, its a bit like "mixing chalk and cheese" as they say. But perhaps I have it all wrong and the two types of music have some things in common. I'm all for making Flamenco popular, but I have to wonder what the great Flamenco artists of the past would think of all this ultra-modernity, and whether they would consider this move toward "coolness" a good thing.

I agree. I'm not even that keen on flamenco jazz but then again it just depends how its done. Estela made a comment on another forum that good flamenco fusion is done by musicians with a good grounding in flamenco but if you come from another field there is the danger that you spoil the essential flamenco part. I know a good many young flamenco percussionists who adore rap and perhaps one day they will manage to incorporate the two. I doubt that some one new to flamenco, even the best rapper in the world could do it though.

Kate

_____________________________

Emilio Maya Temple
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000CA6OBC
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/emiliomaya

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 11 2005 16:01:42