12 hole block treble tying methods

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orsonw

Posts: 1941
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

12 hole block treble tying methods

I have had a lot of trouble with the 1st and sometimes 2nd string breaking at the tie block. I mainly use Luthier 30 but have had this happen with other brands too. I have been using this method;
http://www.jameslisterguitars.co.uk/ListerGuitars/12-hole_tie_block.htm

(I found and uploaded a photo of someone else's guitar to demonstrate). The break happens specifically at the arrow as shown. The 'knot' part is always left intact, the break happens somewhere as the string threads through the knot as it comes out of the hole and over the block.

I thought it must be my tie block so I had a luthier redo the block and also convert another guitar to 12 holes. Now trebles are breaking on both guitars at the same point. So I thought it must be the way it's tied?

I searched for another method and Anders had previously posted another way shown in the lower photograph. I am trying this and will see, so far no break. Has anyone had any experience of this or any recommended ways of tying trebles to a 12 hole block? Thank you.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 9 2013 23:05:24

estebanana

Posts: 9372
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: 12 hole block treble tying methods (in reply to orsonw)

I do it the Anders way. Check the tie block for sharp angles or projections. Even if there is nothing sharp enough to cut a string, a 90 degree unsoftened angle can crimp a string and weaken it locally.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 10 2013 2:02:15

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: 12 hole block treble tying methods (in reply to orsonw)

I tie mine much simpler. Actually I don't tie then at all, just melt a ball on the end of the string and loop it under once at the back of the tie block. But if they keep breaking there it likely is either the edge of the tie block or maybe the edge of the string hole being too sharp.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 10 2013 2:24:32

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: 12 hole block treble tying methods (in reply to orsonw)

Luthier strings are notorious for breaking their first and sometimes 2nd string.

I once bought 10 sets of luthier 20 and ALL the first strings broke. I tested on different guitars. Some made by me, some by others. Some with 6 holes some with 12 holes. It didnt change anything.
You might even get damage on the soundboard. Even though I string in another way, they broke just like yours, where the string passes over the other string
I wrote a Luthier strings a mail.... And they never replied.

Its up to you what to do, but the solution is VERY simple: Dont use Luthier strings. They are crap.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 10 2013 7:32:45

orsonw

Posts: 1941
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: 12 hole block treble tying methods (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Thanks for your replies.

String still broke with this different method. It seems the break is as the string leaves the hole. These are freshly drilled holes so it could be the edges are too sharp. My luthier suggested carefully softening the edge by pulling a wound string through a few times.

I contacted 'Luthier' strings they said it couldn't be the string but I've seen quite a few posts here about their trebles breaking, maybe there's a bad batch in circulation?

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=120662&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=luthier%2Cbreaking&tmode=&smode=&s=#120662

I'm changing brand before messing with the guitars. (Sadly I feel it's time for the inevitable obsessive string nerd period until I settle on something I like!)

Anders which string brand/model did you change to?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 10 2013 10:54:44

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: 12 hole block treble tying methods (in reply to orsonw)

I always string up with Daddario j45 because its a very good reference string. And I always ship with those
Later, on my own guitars, I have like the Daddarion flamenco set with black trebles. I like the feel of them and they last long.
But its something highly personal.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 10 2013 19:04:45

orsonw

Posts: 1941
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: 12 hole block treble tying methods (in reply to orsonw)

I'm trying some d'addario titanium trebles. I thought these would be a good test; if these break then I know it's the guitar.
I am also trying yet another way to tie the trebles that I found searching the foro (Though I am looping them rather than tying knots)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 10 2013 21:52:01

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: 12 hole block treble tying methods (in reply to orsonw)

http://www.pjguitar.com/website/classicalguitars/features/12holebridge/images/12-hole-bridge-loops.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-SpNSRkw2OxA/Tji6qlPILsI/AAAAAAAADdw/wjddief8vUM/s1600/tobias_berg_web_67.jpg

I use that method, no problems

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 11 2013 18:07:56

tri7/5

Posts: 570
Joined: May 5 2012

RE: 12 hole block treble tying methods (in reply to orsonw)

I tie my trebles just like the bass strings and have never had a problem personally. As you said it might just be a sharp edge or something or just the angle it puts the string.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 11 2013 20:21:25

HolyEvil

Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

RE: 12 hole block treble tying methods (in reply to orsonw)

quote:

ORIGINAL: orsonw

I'm trying some d'addario titanium trebles

these are awesome!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 12 2013 11:32:23

orsonw

Posts: 1941
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: 12 hole block treble tying methods (in reply to HolyEvil)

quote:

I'm trying some d'addario titanium trebles .

quote:

these are awesome!

My review: these titanium d'addario feel good and similar to nylon under the fingers, similar dimensions and texture maybe a bit smoother. They are bright, project well and sound good but are not for me. I prefer the 'clunk' of nylon; I have a good guitar and I play hard so I don't need extra brightness or projection. These titanium are a little cold and thin for me so I've gone to hard pro arte (never thought I would!) after several hours playing they are improving and actually they're fine. I do prefer the sound of luthier but if they don't have quality control then I won't use them again.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 12 2013 15:24:21

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: 12 hole block treble tying methods (in reply to orsonw)

'Would hate to be perceived as a contrarian –to general consensus- but I LOVE Luthier Supreme 20.
I started using them because [as usual] of Ricardo's weighty influence, and never found any other string that feels and sounds as 'perfect, to me –as Anderson fairly warns, a highly subjective matter, indeed.

After a few year long pause, I sold my steel strings and I resumed playing my Blanca, and just last night tied up my 12 holes with a fresh set of Luthier. I suppose that it is also true that different strings work better on different instruments, and help us find each guitar's own voice. So experimenting is essential, but relying on others' experience and suggestions a most relative and sometimes also misleading guide [although in my case, listening to Ricardo, turned out to be a successful move].

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 12 2013 16:07:09

orsonw

Posts: 1941
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: 12 hole block treble tying methods (in reply to gj Michelob)

quote:

Would hate to be perceived as a contrarian –to general consensus

The issue is not that they feel bad to play or sound bad, many people like them (Luthier are also my favorite string and Anders has also written in the past that this was his choice of string).

The issue is too many of them broke http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=120662&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=luthier%2Cbreaking&tmode=&smode=&s=#120662.

Obviously a quality control issue because for years they were fine and maybe they are again. But the bad batch is clearly still in circulation. I've had enough after 15 or so broken strings, many not even making it as far as tuning up to pitch when first installing

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 12 2013 17:13:02

Escribano

Posts: 6417
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: 12 hole block treble tying methods (in reply to gj Michelob)

quote:

After a few year long pause, I sold my steel strings and I resumed playing my Blanca

There is something about that soulful, dry sound isn't there? Even though I do not play very much at all, I am still a sucker for my blanca (with pegs).

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 12 2013 17:47:00

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: 12 hole block treble tying methods (in reply to orsonw)

quote:

My review: these titanium d'addario feel good and similar to nylon under the fingers, similar dimensions and texture maybe a bit smoother. They are bright, project well and sound good but are not for me. I prefer the 'clunk' of nylon;

I also prefer the "nylon clunk"
Try a set of Daddario flamenco

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 12 2013 17:58:16

orsonw

Posts: 1941
Joined: Jul. 4 2009

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Apr. 12 2013 19:10:01

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 12 2013 19:05:03

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: 12 hole block treble tying methods (in reply to Escribano)

quote:

There is something about that soulful, dry sound isn't there?

So true. And you had called it, when we met in Italy... 'give it a year or two -you had sentenced, with a dash of satire, as if speaking from your own experience, of a common mistake- and you will long for your blanca... there's something haunting about these guitars and flamenco that gets under your skin'

and it did...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 12 2013 21:39:14

estebanana

Posts: 9372
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: 12 hole block treble tying methods (in reply to gj Michelob)

quote:

After a few year long pause, I sold my steel strings and I resumed playing my Blanca, and just last night tied up my 12 holes with a fresh set of Luthier.

It's like the mafia or yakuza, you can never really leave this "family" .

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 12 2013 21:44:32