Flamenco today vs. Classical era concert music

Costs are rising and times are tough.
Please consider a donation to keep this
place going.

Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.

You are logged in as Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >>Discussions >>General >>

Page: [1]

Message

<< Newer Topic Older Topic >>

tburke

Posts: 45
Joined: Nov. 21 2011
From: Toronto

Flamenco today vs. Classical era con...

I have a theory that now flamenco is at a point of divergence between the performer and the composer similar to rise of the composer and concert virtuoso as separate entities in western art music. I think this because now there are guitarists being hired to play another composers work in Dance settings as well as a rising trend for people performing more often the works of the great composers of flamenco most notably Sabicas, similiar to the process of the seperation of composer and performer in "Classical music". Any one else have thoughts on this?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 12 2013 20:45:47

Ricardo

Posts: 14837
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Flamenco today vs. Classical era... (in reply to tburke)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tburke

I have a theory that now flamenco is at a point of divergence between the performer and the composer similar to rise of the composer and concert virtuoso as separate entities in western art music. I think this because now there are guitarists being hired to play another composers work in Dance settings as well as a rising trend for people performing more often the works of the great composers of flamenco most notably Sabicas, similiar to the process of the seperation of composer and performer in "Classical music". Any one else have thoughts on this?

Totally disagree. In fact I would say there is not enough of classics study by youngsters who tend to jump right in and make their own falsetas once they gets compas and some technique. THere is only a small handful of as you imply "classical" interpreters of flamenco.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 12 2013 20:49:45

tburke

Posts: 45
Joined: Nov. 21 2011
From: Toronto

RE: Flamenco today vs. Classical era... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: tburke

I have a theory that now flamenco is at a point of divergence between the performer and the composer similar to rise of the composer and concert virtuoso as separate entities in western art music. I think this because now there are guitarists being hired to play another composers work in Dance settings as well as a rising trend for people performing more often the works of the great composers of flamenco most notably Sabicas, similiar to the process of the seperation of composer and performer in "Classical music". Any one else have thoughts on this?

Totally disagree. In fact I would say there is not enough of classics study by youngsters who tend to jump right in and make their own falsetas once they gets compas and some technique. THere is only a small handful of as you imply "classical" interpreters of flamenco.

Fair point, It's just I hear M.A. Cortes playing Sabicas and of course Javier Conde doing the same and also just checking out young competition guitarists youtube channels and hear Sabicas and Paco pieces it makes me think about what i learned about Mendlesohn playing Bach etc.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 12 2013 21:01:25

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Flamenco today vs. Classical era... (in reply to tburke)

I think its always been like that. Studying the well known guitarists work. learning their falsetas and so on.
Its also very common to hear not so well known guitarists play falsetas by PdL, Nuñez, Amigo, Sanlucar etc. when playing in public.
Also many teachers base their teching on the well known repatoire and so they keep tradition going.
I think that all the best Spanish guitarists have been through that school and they know how to play many of the old standards.

In Jazz, you also study other players improvisations and use them as a base for your own playing.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 13 2013 8:34:17

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Flamenco today vs. Classical era... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

Totally disagree. In fact I would say there is not enough of classics study by youngsters who tend to jump right in and make their own falsetas once they gets compas and some technique. THere is only a small handful of as you imply "classical" interpreters of flamenco.

I second that...one of the very few super talents i know that seem to restrict to playing the classics alone is Javier Conde and that restriction even made me wonder if he could be a savant (a special kind of autism that makes someone excel in certain fields but often restricts that extraordinary talent to copying rather than creating). One of my former classmates (who played in the same program) didn't even bother to stay for Javier's concert because of that "i play the classics only" restriction. Personally i rather hear a well played classic than a badly composed original and it was nice to hear some of the classics played at that level (in fact a higher level than some of the original composers could reproduce on stage them self at that moment of time)....but i also wondered what this guy had to offer himself, because i still believe composing your own repertoire is part of the fun/fame/glory.

Paco Peña can play the classics better than enyone alive (if Tomatio plays parts of that repertoire he looses the battle on all grounds,...technique, sound and vision) but still he is not widely appreciated by flamenco fans....i can understand that from a modern point of view, but back in the 70ties he produced 1 fabulous record after the other and i.m.o. he was the second best player of that period of time.

Funny enough Paco Peña can perform/compose modern flamenco on the highest level if he wants, but he simply fails the time and interest to do so. My father was in need of nice tanguillos material once and was quite disappointed by the (lack of) material offered by the well known artists....so he asked Paco Peña to have a look....Paco instantly composed an excellent falseta that was very modern and way better in vision and composition than the ones offered by others....but he will not perform it because it's not his thing.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 13 2013 19:39:15

Morante

Posts: 2184
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: Flamenco today vs. Classical era... (in reply to tburke)

Flamenco is cante, not guitar. Your post and your thinking is meaningless. You do not understand flamenco.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 13 2013 20:28:13

Ricardo

Posts: 14837
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Flamenco today vs. Classical era... (in reply to Morante)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Morante

Flamenco is cante, not guitar. Your post and your thinking is meaningless. You do not understand flamenco.

In that sense then flamenco is dead and the whole foro is meaningless.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 13 2013 21:25:40

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Flamenco today vs. Classical era... (in reply to Morante)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Morante

Flamenco is cante, not guitar. Your post and your thinking is meaningless. You do not understand flamenco.

You seem to have a very narrow idea of what flamenco is. Obviously cante is the soul of it but cante has not the monopoly on it....you mean to say that Paco de Lucia is not flamenco (unless he accompanies Camaron, Fosforito and other singers)? .....that the compas of seguiriyas is not flamenco until a singer joins in?.... that all escobillas are meaningless?...that toque, baile, palmas and jaleo are second hand emotions that has nothing to do with true flamenco? In that case i'm very glad i'm not standing in your shoes.

On the other hand you are still very generous to name cante as a whole....many locals claim true flamenco can only be found in their family(s).....in the next village they don't understand it at all :-)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 13 2013 22:11:43

tburke

Posts: 45
Joined: Nov. 21 2011
From: Toronto

RE: Flamenco today vs. Classical era... (in reply to Morante)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Morante

Flamenco is cante, not guitar. Your post and your thinking is meaningless. You do not understand flamenco.

Hasn't what I wrote about already happened in cante?, from what I understand modern singers pretty much only perform the "classics"?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 13 2013 22:18:23

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Flamenco today vs. Classical era... (in reply to tburke)

:-)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 13 2013 22:22:52

Ricardo

Posts: 14837
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Flamenco today vs. Classical era... (in reply to tburke)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tburke

quote:

ORIGINAL: Morante

Flamenco is cante, not guitar. Your post and your thinking is meaningless. You do not understand flamenco.

Hasn't what I wrote about already happened in cante?, from what I understand modern singers pretty much only perform the "classics"?

they try but most fail and only sing andalucian pop.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 13 2013 22:47:10

machopicasso

Posts: 973
Joined: Nov. 27 2010

RE: Flamenco today vs. Classical era... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

In fact I would say there is not enough of classics study by youngsters who tend to jump right in and make their own falsetas once they gets compas and some technique.

Does the study of flamenco "classics" consist in 1) the study of falsetas; or 2) the study of cante/dance accompaniment; or 3) both? If either 2) or 3), then isn't part of the reason the lack of instructional material for accompaniment?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 22 2013 9:36:46

Ricardo

Posts: 14837
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Flamenco today vs. Classical era... (in reply to machopicasso)

quote:

ORIGINAL: machopicasso

quote:

In fact I would say there is not enough of classics study by youngsters who tend to jump right in and make their own falsetas once they gets compas and some technique.

Does the study of flamenco "classics" consist in 1) the study of falsetas; or 2) the study of cante/dance accompaniment; or 3) both? If either 2) or 3), then isn't part of the reason the lack of instructional material for accompaniment?

All the above...and there is PLENTY of instructional material for accomp in the sense of the huge body of recordings as it's about playing chords for the singer. The actual "learning" can only be done with an actual singer. The long cante accomp thread is a starting place for bedroom players, (playing for a recording of a singer with only compas reference) but honestly is not a substitute for live one on one work with a singer. And learning only from a guitarist what to do is not good either, same deal with baile. It is simply not efficient to look at "materials" for learning this properly. The only way is just DOING it and failing and learning from mistakes and carrying on.

Ricardo

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 22 2013 13:12:54