Time to electrify.........

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Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

Time to electrify.........

I'm normally playing for a small dance class and it's not an issue but I've been doing this community college beginners dance class with my guitar teacher and it's like 15-20 girls clomping around aimlessly. While my teacher is there with me it's not a problem 'cus he's amplified and they can hear him but at some point he wants to leave it to me and I'll need to be amplified.
From what I gather the consensus is the Bartlett pro B seems to be the way to go for quality sound no? If I do end up doing performances at some point I'd like a decent sound....
Side note, whats up with the bartlett website, its down...........

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 12 2012 18:33:59

davidheis_24

Posts: 134
Joined: Feb. 4 2011

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Sep. 10 2013 23:51:58

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2012 9:03:41

Ricardo

Posts: 14848
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Time to electrify......... (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lenador

I'm normally playing for a small dance class and it's not an issue but I've been doing this community college beginners dance class with my guitar teacher and it's like 15-20 girls clomping around aimlessly. While my teacher is there with me it's not a problem 'cus he's amplified and they can hear him but at some point he wants to leave it to me and I'll need to be amplified.
From what I gather the consensus is the Bartlett pro B seems to be the way to go for quality sound no? If I do end up doing performances at some point I'd like a decent sound....
Side note, whats up with the bartlett website, its down...........

Well I don't really care for the "consensus" I guess, I dont' consider it an option to amp flamenco guitar unless you are using a PA system. Can be just one good speaker but you need some power to have clear sound, and you must close mike the guitar....can be any mic the higher quality the better. Best mic nowadays for singing is Sure BETA 87A....you have to be close to it but it sounds great with very little bleed, and one of few condesers that captures the highs of the guitar without sounding too glassy bright.

Now if you are too lazy for all that PA fuss....then I guess you really don't care much about the sound of the guitar plus it's volume, so I don't really think amplification is needed. In fact over the years I find the noisy off compas students need the guitar amped THE LEAST because they are the ones that need to learn to shut up and listen to the compas and guitar....and the darn palmeros need learn the same thing about dynamics. ANd I will sit there and play pretty soft and normal or deliberately soft when they get noisy and off time cuz lets face it, guitars are not loud instruments. But it should still be heard if the people making percussive noise actually want to develop some control over what they are doing. Most guitarists do the opposite and start killing themselves (with or without amplification) when the stomping mess gets louder and it does a disservice to students and player and teacher alike.

So these are my typical against the grain opinions about this stuff.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2012 12:10:15

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Time to electrify......... (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

So these are my typical against the grain opinions about this stuff.

Hah, Love it.
I actually own an 87A so that's pretty cool to hear. I don't own a PA but I do know a little about setting up PA's for live vocal purposes and it sounds like I just need to treat like that.
Thanks Ricardo!

Thanks David as well, I think I know where I can try those out so I'll give it a shot.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2012 14:32:07

Don Dionisio

Posts: 360
Joined: Feb. 16 2011
From: Durham, NC

RE: Time to electrify......... (in reply to Leñador)

I own a one speaker Yamaha PA that works great for small gigs. Sam Ash
Or Guitar Center are great places to look for affordable systems. You can also
Look on ebay once you know what you want.
You can find powerful systems for less than $500. I recommend
that you buy a stand for the speaker-it makes a big difference.
Good luck.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2012 18:21:53

turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010

RE: Time to electrify......... (in reply to Leñador)

If you must go to the dark side and do the piezo thing, I'd recommend the LR Baggs Anthem Classical SL.
Jason McGuire recommended it to me, and he's been on the money; it's the best of the lot.
I've used Fishman, BBand, Bartlett mini mic, other mics (dynamic and condensor), contact pickups (AKG, Shertler), soundboard transducers (K&K, etc), and I like the Baggs the most for presence/clarity and quality of sound.

But this is for playing with drummers and bassists and such. If you're just accompanying a dance class, I can't see why you would need to drill the guitar. Like others seem to be saying, a mic and good PA go along way. And PA's are coming in more and more designs and sizes these days. If you don't mind spending the dough, you can get nice sound

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2012 19:19:05

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Time to electrify......... (in reply to Leñador)

Thanks Don and Turner
I should be able to score a decent PA off Craigslist here in LA.
If I do play shows my teacher was complaining about background noise interference from noisy bars using a mic when he did it. Have you guys noticed this to be an issue?

I kinda feel like for him it was a case of what he was using or how he set it up. I've done set ups for bands in the past and didn't run into this issue with the singers mics but singers are a little louder then guitars....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2012 21:29:39

turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010

RE: Time to electrify......... (in reply to Leñador)

Lenador - as for mics and background noise, it's usually not an issue if you consider a few things:
1) if you use a dynamic mic (like Shure SM57), the mic has less power, so you need to get it pretty close. That, in and of itself, takes care of alot of background noise. However, when close mic'ing, you have to experiment with position to get the best sound. Most people recommend placing it near the 12th fret, pointed toward the soundhole. Placing it directly infront of the soundhole tends to exaggerate the bass frequencies. And there is something called "proximity effect" which says that getting the mic too close to anything will exaggerate bass frequencies, so too close is..well..too close

2) if you use a condensor mic (like AKG 451 - such as Paco and many big time guys use), you have a lot more power. The mic is a lot "hotter". Which can be good or bad, depending. You still have the proximity effect issue. And they can pick up a lot more sound in general. So a balance of volume vs. positioning is key.

Most people recommend a good dynamic mic over a condensor if you have a basic set up and/or aren't very familiar w/ sound gear.

But if you look on YouTube, virtually all big name pros use condensors. But they also have pro sound-men taking care of the details. So I guess there's a bit to consider afterall..

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2012 22:42:09

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Time to electrify......... (in reply to Leñador)

Great info Turner!

I've got an 87A like Ricardo recommended and an SM57 so I could get a decent PA and experiment, I do have a little portable mixer with phantom power in case I end up going with the condenser and seeing as I'm not playing shows yet and I can try my experiment out on the girls at the community college and really get it dialed in. If I can put up with the clomp clomp they can put up with a little feedback while I'm dialing it in.

Death stare from the teacher is inevitable either way.....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 13 2012 23:01:48

Ricardo

Posts: 14848
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Time to electrify......... (in reply to turnermoran)

quote:

Most people recommend placing it near the 12th fret, pointed toward the soundhole. Placing it directly infront of the soundhole tends to exaggerate the bass frequencies. And there is something called "proximity effect" which says that getting the mic too close to any

Guitar is way quieter than a vocalist unless you are only strumming hard rumba all the time. So in noisy environment no two ways about it, you will get background bleed unless you close it up into the hole. So you have to reduce bass and increase mids then crank the level and be careful of your position and speaker location. It's the best you can do. Don't be afraid to cut bass to zero and increase mids and even trebs with the mids way up....depends on guitar and speaker combo room etc. With beta 87A I don't think you will have to go that extreme. I usually get by with just some bass reduction and a touch of mids up. You can't compare the treb response of the 87 to a sure sm57...it's ridiculous. THose super hot condesors they use on concert stage don't work so good in noisy environments cuz of bleed. But the trad off is you gotta be careful of position when you close mic.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 14 2012 3:51:25

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Time to electrify......... (in reply to Leñador)

Sounds like everything else in flamenco, no hard fast rules, situation specific etc.... I guess they'll be some trial and error to deal with but thems the breaks.
Thanks Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 14 2012 5:51:58

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Time to electrify......... (in reply to Leñador)

I thought I'd give an update for the next noob like me looking to amplify their flamenco.

I did the microphone thing with the sm58 a small mixer and a PA(actually a powered speaker) and that works great in most instances, definitely the closest thing to "my guitar louder". Then I was asked to play at a holiday party and I tried to do this and it just did not work. Too much background noise so every time I turned the mic up loud enough to pick up the guitar it would feed back. I'm not a total noob to sound equipment so I feel like I did the best with what I had. I ended up just playing acoustically and all went well but only people in a 10' radius could hear me.

I decided to buy the LR Baggs Anthem classical SL for instances like that and it sounds great! It's a combo of mic and piezo and you can tweak the mix of how much mic and how much piezo you want. The piezo itself sounds to be of better quality then others, not nearly as "quacky", and the mic picks up golpe's and harmonics that would be missed by piezo alone. I nearly don't need to add any reverb to it as it picks up all of the natural reverb of the instrument. I did the install myself and all worked out well but it was tricky trying not to hit a top brace, I probably wouldn't recommend it to anyone without some woodworking/construction experience. In all I think this is a completely acceptable sounding substitute for situations where you just can't mic up.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 28 2012 19:40:59