Difference between models of Gotoh tuners

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rogeliocan

Posts: 811
Joined: Nov. 23 2009
From: Canada

Difference between models of Gotoh t...

I see there are 2 categories of Gotoh tuners 35G and 35G510. There is not much description on their site, in fact there is none.

Two questions.
Within each categories are the differences between models only cosmetic? I see some differences looking at the pictures, but not sure if some actually perform better than others.

Apart from turning ratio is there a big difference in quality between both categories?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 16 2012 21:11:28

estebanana

Posts: 9379
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Difference between models of Got... (in reply to rogeliocan)

I've used both types for 13-14 years or so. One has a heavier plate and ball ends on the opposite end of the tuner grips. The less expensive one has brushed a metal finish rather than a glossy plated finish.

They seem to perform about the same, the brushed finish type is my favorite flamenco tuner because it is fairly light weight as tuners go. It has been reasonably priced for many years. The only complaint I've ever had about Gotoh tuners is the screws tend to fall out of the grip side. Sometimes they need a tiny drop of CA glue on the thread.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 16 2012 23:10:23

rogeliocan

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Joined: Nov. 23 2009
From: Canada

RE: Difference between models of Got... (in reply to estebanana)

Thanks that is one thing resolve.
So looking at the diagrams they have, looks like there is a difference between the (420, 350) and the rest. The first 2 have some kind of hook to hold the post in place (so attached to the plate only on one side), whereas the others are attached on both side. The latter looks better.

Apart from looks and colors and material of the handles, am I correct to say that the 'hook' thing is the only difference in construction?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2012 0:11:27

estebanana

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RE: Difference between models of Got... (in reply to rogeliocan)

Not sure what you're calling the hook?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2012 2:12:36

rogeliocan

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Joined: Nov. 23 2009
From: Canada

RE: Difference between models of Got... (in reply to estebanana)

This is what I mean by a 'hook' the 350 and 420 are like this and the others are shown in the next post. Does this make any difference?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2012 11:30:29

rogeliocan

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From: Canada

RE: Difference between models of Got... (in reply to estebanana)

the other in the 35G series are like this

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2012 11:32:18

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Difference between models of Got... (in reply to rogeliocan)

quote:

I see there are 2 categories of Gotoh tuners 35G and 35G510. There is not much description on their site, in fact there is none.

Two questions.
Within each categories are the differences between models only cosmetic? I see some differences looking at the pictures, but not sure if some actually perform better than others.

Apart from turning ratio is there a big difference in quality between both categories?

IMHO, the difference is big. Both in quality and price. The 35G510 series has a gear that is a lot heavyer and a lot better quality and they cost 2 - 3 times more. I use the 35G series as my standard tuner on 1A guitars and for an extra price I use the 35G510 series. The Aluminium ones with nylon roller bearings are realy nice (and expensive)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2012 13:43:42

Ricardo

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Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Difference between models of Got... (in reply to rogeliocan)

I had two guitars that had what I think or Gotoh, one shiny the other not shiny, but both had polished metal rollers, like stainless steel or aluminum. They were very heavy but looked and functioned really nice. I have a set on my Conde that were given to me as a gift that are just normal plastic rollers.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2012 19:29:49

estebanana

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RE: Difference between models of Got... (in reply to rogeliocan)

These tuners have the closed loop, the hook tuners are cheaper quality. Click on Specs and pictures to compare. There is another Gotoh that is more expensive also with the closed loop, but with shiny plating. Those are the heavier ones.

Many flamenco makers use these as the offered tuner. They are understated and fairly light.

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tuners/Classical_guitar/Gotoh_Classical_Guitar_Tuners.html

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2012 19:36:26

Anders Eliasson

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RE: Difference between models of Got... (in reply to rogeliocan)

Yes, those are the ones that I use as well.

But the 35G510 series is a totally different tuner. Much higher quality. Much higher price and a lot better tuning
The ones with aluminium rollers have a nylon bushing that cant bee seen when installed corrctly. This means that the roller doesnt run directly in the wwod but in a smooth bushing and it makes a difference. Those with aluminium base plate are relatively light as well.

On the other hand. When playing a lot with a capo, I dont think you really appreciate a high end tuning machine. The friction from the capo kind of change everything.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 18 2012 11:04:37

rogeliocan

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From: Canada

RE: Difference between models of Got... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

These tuners have the closed loop, the hook tuners are cheaper quality

Great, that is what I wanted to know, I was thinking that open loop was cheaper.

The 35G are good enough for me if they are good enough for you guys. I read in another forum that one guy said the 510 series affected the sound of his guitar and he went back to the 35G.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 18 2012 13:08:07

Anders Eliasson

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RE: Difference between models of Got... (in reply to rogeliocan)

Some of the 510´s are pretty heavy. But not all.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 18 2012 15:19:47

turnermoran

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Joined: Feb. 6 2010

RE: Difference between models of Got... (in reply to rogeliocan)

I just bought iStroboSoft for my iPhone
It's an instrument tuner designed by a company called Peterson who makes the most accurate turning devices available.

It can tune within one 10th of cent which is a factor far more precise than your average headstock tuner.

Point is, it's almost impossible to use the tuner with any guitar that has cheap tuners.
It's too difficult to make fine movements with cheap tuners. You turn the knob and nothing happens, you turn it further and it goes too far. We've all dealt with cheap tuners...

I have Gilbert brand tuners on a couple guitars. They are $350 tuners but they respond to the slightest touch and are the only ones that I can use the tuning software with and not pull my hair out.

I've never really seen the benefits of lightweight tuners outweighing the quality of better heavier tuners.
I can't understand that one.
And I play old-school style too sometimes.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 19 2012 15:30:49

estebanana

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Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Difference between models of Got... (in reply to turnermoran)

The Gilbert tuners I put on your guitar are the same or lighter than the Gotohs mentioned here. The problem is headstock being to heavy on a light blanca and pulling the neck down when in sitting position. Classical guitars usually have heaver bodies and counter balance the weight of tuners that are heavier than 5.5 ounces. On the seven strings it seems to help too with balance to use light tuners, but I have moved to using Schertler tuners from Switzerland.

The real working difference between these two series of tuners is that 510 series has a 16:1 gear ratio and the 35G has a 14:1 gear ratio. So that is the difference. Each series is a good quality tuner and usually does not have the problems of backlash and friction sticking if installed well. The 35G series is not a cheap tuner, it is a good tuner and the other series is a higher quality tuner. But other than the shiny plating and 16:1 gear ratio they have the same robustness and durability in the plate and gear frames.

Ordinarily 14:1 is considered a proper gear ratio to give accurate tuning with nylon strings, however 16:1 is better. 16:1 is often used as the standard for steel string guitar gear ratios and some manufacturers make both gear ratios as Gotoh does.

That said, the Pegheds tuners by Chuck Herrin are a 4:1 gear ratio wrapped around a 1/4" post. I've have never had any trouble tuning them, occasionally they need adjustment or need a touch to keep them seated, but 4:1 on that size post is accurate enough for very fine tuning.

To go further, regular wood friction pegs also with a diameter of 1/4" - 8 mm on the post protruding from the head stock will also tune very fine if the peg is properly seated and treated to be supple yet non slipping when turned. I just did a set for a foro member who came to take some guitar making tutorials and his pegs worked perfectly.

***I might add we also used Anders Brand Glycerin Hippie Soap TM*, mixed with marble dust. Marble dust is the best fine powder medium I've found to ground the soap lubricant in.

The important thing to understand is that the cheaper plates will have hooked retainers for the tuner grip shaft. They are not as reliable and are not made as well. Often the hooked retain faikls the and the grip shaft goes flying out. Think of a car losing its axel while on the freeway. In the case of Gotoh tuners the plates with the full enclosed loop of metal for the grip shaft are the better quality. The same plate design goes into making both the 16:1 ratio tuners and the 14:1 tuners. With the loop design the grip shaft can be replaced and gears rebuilt should they wear or bend, but if the hook design bends or fails it's over.

quote:

I've never really seen the benefits of lightweight tuners outweighing the quality of better heavier tuners.
I can't understand that one.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 19 2012 17:05:12

HolyEvil

Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

RE: Difference between models of Got... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

Ye
On the other hand. When playing a lot with a capo, I dont think you really appreciate a high end tuning machine. The friction from the capo kind of change everything.

Can you elaborate on what you mean?
I thought higher priced tuning machines are just smoother and hold the string better?
if a cheaper tuner does the same thing, but only not as smooth. Would it make a difference? (when playing with no capo?)

cheers

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 25 2012 0:50:54

Anders Eliasson

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RE: Difference between models of Got... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

The real working difference between these two series of tuners is that 510 series has a 16:1 gear ratio and the 35G has a 14:1 gear ratio. So that is the difference.

I totally disagree. the 510 series, besides having another gear ratio, has gears which are far better. The gear is bigger and better made.
If they are worth the extra price... dunno. Thats this money thing again. Its so that the extra 10% cost a lot and the difference between the two series is a lot more than 10%.

Holyevil. When you tune a string, it has friction. When playing without a capo, you have a bit of friction over the nut. When you play with a capo, you have a lot of friction between the capo and the fingerboard.
Thats why most players tune their capoed flamenco guitars by using the tuners/pegs AND by dragging the strings in front of and behind the capo.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 25 2012 8:11:23

HolyEvil

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From: Sydney, Australia

RE: Difference between models of Got... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

Holyevil. When you tune a string, it has friction. When playing without a capo, you have a bit of friction over the nut. When you play with a capo, you have a lot of friction between the capo and the fingerboard.
Thats why most players tune their capoed flamenco guitars by using the tuners/pegs AND by dragging the strings in front of and behind the capo.

so is friction good or bad?
and where is this friction? in the nut slot?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 25 2012 10:00:06

Anders Eliasson

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RE: Difference between models of Got... (in reply to rogeliocan)

quote:

so is friction good or bad?
and where is this friction? in the nut slot?

Most honestly: Are you taking the pis on me?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 25 2012 19:59:40

HolyEvil

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From: Sydney, Australia

RE: Difference between models of Got... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

Most honestly: Are you taking the pis on me?

I'm being honest here.. what's the difference in this friction between a good expensive tuner and a cheaper tuner if the cheaper tuner holds the string in it's tone/key(eg E,A,D etc) properly?

I really want to know more..

thank you!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 26 2012 2:58:48

Anders Eliasson

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RE: Difference between models of Got... (in reply to rogeliocan)

The friction I´m talking about is not in the tuners, but in the capo (go back and read) and this means that the even though you have the very best tuners in the world, you´ll always have to deal with that friction and thats why you see so many players dragging the strings in front of and behind the capo when they tune the guitar.
Thats why i said that i didnt find that the quality of tuningmachines on flamenco guitar is so important if you play a lot with a capo.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 26 2012 8:01:31

HolyEvil

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From: Sydney, Australia

RE: Difference between models of Got... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

Thats why i said that i didnt find that the quality of tuningmachines on flamenco guitar is so important if you play a lot with a capo.

so is there an actual benefit of having more expensive/quality tuners?
if a cheaper tuner is holding the strings well? is there a difference?

cheers

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 26 2012 10:49:01