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Rasgueo-Rest
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3431
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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 RE: Rasgueo-Rest (in reply to Doitsujin)
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I'm 193 cm = 6' 4". A footstool at the lowest setting, maybe 7.5 cm=3" raises my right leg enough to play comfortably in the traditional position for hours. The upper right arm is horizontal. The guitar is held by the weight of the arm, no muscular tension whatsoever. None. This is important. The right forearm is parallel to the top of the guitar, not resting on the edge.
I have half a dozen photos of guitarists from Ramon Montoya to Diego del Morao, including Paco and his teacher, his older brother, showing them playing with the forearm parallel to the soundboard, not with the forearm resting on the edge. I'll post them if anyone wants to see them
It took maybe a year to figure this out, but I was in my early twenties at the time, and still immortal.
I play classical in the Segovia/Llobet/Tarrega position. In this case the right forearm rests lightly on the edge of the guitar--but not heavily enough to cause any problem at all. The upper side of the guitar is tilted slightly toward the chest relative to the lower side. This relieves the pressure of the edge on the right forearm.
If you press your forearm heavily enough against the edge to cause numbness or any other problem at all, you're holding the guitar wrong. Figure out how to hold it right, or get a teacher who can show you.
RNJ
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Date Dec. 10 2011 6:47:22
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3431
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: Rasgueo-Rest (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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One significant exception among the photos should be mentioned. Here is a posed photo of Javier Molina, lifelong friend and accompanist of Antonio Chacon and a tremendously influential founder of the Jerez style.
He shows a unique cross between the traditional flamenco position of Montoya, Ricardo, Sabicas, et al, and the classical position with the forearm resting on the edge of the guitar. Molina was known to play both classical and flamenco.
However, his famous students, Moraito Chico's father and uncle both played with the forearm more or less parallel to the soundboard, not resting on the edge, as did Moraito Chico and as does his son Diego.
RNJ
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Date Dec. 10 2011 8:23:56
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3459
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Rasgueo-Rest (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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Richard, you have summed up in a few words and illustrated with photos of some of the greats of flamenco why "arm rests," "straps," and God knows what else are unnecessary. When the guitar is held correctly (with slight adjustments for individual physiques), one can play comfortably without using such extraneous devices. It is all a matter of proper posture and how one holds the guitar. "Ergonomic" devices are not needed.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Dec. 10 2011 10:55:36
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Rasgueo-Rest (in reply to michall)
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Actually, it seems to me as if 5 of the 11 given examples would not present a suspended forearm, but a rest of the forearm near the ellbow.
You would not want a suspended forearm for several reasons.
( See Prof. Iznaolas explanations below.)
Independently from whether you being tall and thinking to be executing without superfluous efforts, which in view of Richard´s described approach ought to be contradictive in itself, as any withhold of the arms weight just has to be equalling a pulling up by the shoulder in the same time.
Another point that remains proportionally due is that the longer your limbs the more parallel your fingers will end up to the strings.
Requiring you to either:
a. lift the guitar towards vertical
b. bend the wrist sideways in a hampering way
c. extend the lower bouts diameter for to gain some distance / rectangle / accomodate your limbs.
With the first two solutions not really compensating for a mismatch.
- And I assume that someone like Grisha, who very impressively managed so much in efficiency, by now would had found a way to relieve the shoulder, if there was one with thelike resort examples of b. and c.
Apart from the question whether you feel to come along fine with the guitars standard dimensions, could it really be that it was fitting perfectly to say anyone between 150 and 230 cm?
It would be appearing rather pragmatical to me if you stuck such an arm rest like that elevating plexi thing on your lower bout for a couple of days first, and commented on it afterwards.
Here an exerpt of why a suspended forearm isn´t really what you want for ergonomical reasons.
quote:
Developing a keenly refined muscular sense for poise is one of the key issues in technical training. Without it our control of active and passive resources will be impaired.
There are several anatomical parts of our body which are naturally poised: the head; the lower jaw. When we are awake, our head is kept vertical by the tonus of the neck muscles, which, unbeknown to us and without our feeling any effort whatsoever, overcome the pull of gravity. Likewise the muscles that keep our mouth closed. This is why, when we sleep and our musculature relaxes completely, our jaw falls open, our head falls to our chest. The fact that, under normal circumstances, we do not feel effort in those muscles of the neck and head is because the tension produced by their tonic contraction is totally functional; it is no more, nor less, than needed to overcome gravity. We do not feel effort. What we feel is that those elements float, as if weightless. This ‘floating’ sensation is characteristic of all properly poised elements and, more generally, of properly applied functional tension if certain conditions pertaining to the attitude of the joints articulating those elements ...
a. Arm Leverage
Gravity being an inescapable, perennial presence in our lives, it is to our advantage to recognise and utilise its pull when embarking in motor activity. In terms of technique this is what we have called passive resources. The contradictory approaches among players and teachers to right hand technique arise from a lack of awareness, across the board, about the importance of this factor.
A case in point is that of arm leverage. The connection between the demeanour of the limb on the instrument and finger activity, though recognised, is treated in casual and superficial ways, if at all, in traditional methodology.
Forearm leverage is defined by the point of contact chosen for support when placing it on the instrument. That point of contact is the fulcrum of a lever of which the upper arm, or the shoulder, acts as the force and the pull of gravity is the load or resistance.
The point of application upon which gravity exercises its pull (the centre of gravity) is located just below the elbow. If the fulcrum (point of contact with instrument) is located ahead of the centre of gravity, towards the wrist, the arm mechanism acts as a class II lever (wheelbarrow: load between fulcrum and force).
If left passively to respond to the pull of gravity, the arm will fall on the elbow side and the forearm and hand will fly away from the strings. To approach the strings with the fingers, the shoulder has to involve its muscles actively to lift the upper arm, an action that, through the fixed flexion of the elbow joint, approximates the forearm and, therefore, the hand to the strings. In summary, a short forearm leverage using a point of support mid-way between elbow and wrist uses active resources to approach strings, passive resources to get away from strings.
When, on the other hand, the fulcrum is close to the elbow joint, approximately coinciding with the centre of gravity, arm mechanism acts as a class III lever (drawbridge).[2] The resistance is no longer placed at the elbow joint, whose centre of gravity is now neutralised, and the new load is the weight of the forearm and hand. If left to respond to the pull of gravity, forearm and hand will fall down towards strings. That is to say, the approach to the string is the result of passive resources, while getting away from strings will be the effect of active resources (essentially, the action of the forearm flexors located in the upper arm). A long forearm leverage using a point of support near the elbow joint acts in exactly opposite fashion to that of the short forearm approach.
Ruphus
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Date Dec. 10 2011 11:32:37
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3431
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: Rasgueo-Rest (in reply to Ruphus)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ruphus
Actually, it seems to me as if 5 of the 11 given examples would not present a suspended forearm, but a rest of the forearm near the ellbow.
You would not want a suspended forearm for several reasons.
( See Prof. Iznaolas explanations below.)
Independently from whether you being tall and thinking to be executing without superfluous efforts, which in view of Richard´s described approach ought to be contradictive in itself, as any withhold of the arms weight just has to be equalling a pulling up by the shoulder in the same time.
Look at Sabicas and Paco. The arm is supported by the side of the guitar. The whole weight of both the upper arm and the forearm is transmitted through the guitar to the right thigh. This requires no tension whatsoever of the shoulder muscles. The forearm is suspended by the muscles of the upper arm.
Iznaola's approach is aimed strongly toward the classical approach of the "quiet right hand." Everything is played from the same right hand position, with the exception of a few rare special effects such as tambora, pizzicato, artificial harmonics, etc.
This is fine for classical, but if you observe the great flamenco players their technique is the complete antithesis of the "quiet right hand." They change their right hand position radically from arpeggio to picado to rasgueo to pulgar to alzapua. Much of this change requires rotation of the forearm at the elbow joint. Resting the forearm on the edge of the guitar inhibits this rotation.
When Paco does his lightning picado, he raises his whole arm off the guitar. His wrist is cocked to the right to bring his fingers perpendicular to the string. His fingers move mostly from the second joint, not from the knuckle. Iznaola would have a fit. Or maybe he would be fascinated, as Segovia was by Sabicas's thumb.
It's not that Paco is stupid, nor that he is playing wrong. He has very different objectives from Iznaola. Paco wants a loud, brilliant tone. He wants dazzling speed and clarity in pulgar. He wants crisp, loud, rhythmically precise rasgueados. He uses alzapua, which is totally foreigh to the classical player. Paco has said that classical players are somewhat inhibited in technique by paying too much attention to tone.
Classical and flamenco technique have distinct objectives. A major component of classical technique is expression through subtly varied tone quality and the micro-dynamic shaping of phrases, played tirando or apoyando. Many modern classical virtuosos say they never use apoyando, varying their tirando stroke to achieve the same effect. Flamenco technique aims for a brilliant, far less varied tone quality. Dynamics are applied differently.
Classical players' rasgueados are almost alway wimpy and rhythmically indistinct. Flamenco players' loud, crisp rhythmically precise rasgueados, are obtained through a totally different right-hand approach.
Classical thumb technique is very different from flamenco. It's played from the "quiet right hand" while the flamenco changes his right hand posture for pulgar runs, and changes it again for alzapua....and so on, and so on.
It's not that one technique is right and the other is wrong. They just have different objectives. Generations of virtuosos have evolved different techniques to arrive at these different objectives.
quote:
Another point that remains proportionally due is that the longer your limbs the more parallel your fingers will end up to the strings.
Requiring you to either:
a. lift the guitar towards vertical
b. bend the wrist sideways in a hampering way
c. extend the lower bouts diameter for to gain some distance / rectangle / accomodate your limbs.
When I started playing in the early 1960s, both classical and flamenco players were taught to bend the wrist to the right to bring the fingers' stoke perpendicular to the strings--a la Segovia or Sabicas. For that matter, the only photo I can come up with Iznaola playing has the wrist bent as far to the right as anyone I've seen. Nowadays classical teachers have gone clear to the other extreme, counseling no bending to the right at all. To bring the fingers fairly perpendicular to the strings, the elbow comes up and the the forearm rests on the edge of the guitar. Iznalola's advice becomes relevant.
Now the wrist bends downward, instead of rightward. Still, for many players the stroke is not perfectly perpendicular, and virtuosos like Scott Tennant advise "ramping" the shape of the fingernails. Then we hear he has stopped doing it himself.
My arms are pretty long. I have straightened out my right wrist pretty much. I don't strive for exact perpendicularity. Once in a while I will go back to near-absolute perpendicularity just to check. Tone is a little better, but is it worth the expense of the bent wrist? Segovia's tone was more beautiful and varied than almost any modern classical player. Was it worth the bent wrist? Academia seems to have decided that the answer is "no"--for the time being, at least.
This brings me to an important point. If you watch the flamenco greats, you will not see absolute uniformity of technique. Often when questioned which of two approaches is "correct", they are quoted as saying, "Whichever one works for you." Are they stupid? Or is it possible that there is more than one way to go about it?
Modern classical technique has evolved from the day of Segovia's total dominance. But if you watch his videotaped master classes, he never comments nor gives advice on technique, even when the student is doing something horrifying to modern sensibilities. Segovia's recorded master classes were always about interpretation. As far as I know, the "Segovia technique" that people criticize was never taught by him. He did collaborate with Vladimir Bobri on a little book with photographs and drawings of hand positions. Otherwise, people just watched and mimicked. Could it be that he did what worked for him after years of study and analysis, but there are other solutions for other people?
Could it be that the flamencos actually know how to achieve their objectives?
RNJ
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Date Dec. 10 2011 22:48:30
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