question on palos structure

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rogeliocan

Posts: 811
Joined: Nov. 23 2009
From: Canada

question on palos structure

Could someone clarify how the rhythms are described?
I see both 4/4 and 2/4 used to describe Tangos.
And I see 6/8 + 3/4 to describe solea, bulerias...

For Tangos, I understand 4/4 but the 2/4, I don't really get.
If these are only used to describe the form than, I get it, as these fall in what they call the binary rhythms. But if they are for actual bar time signature... would you every write a Tangos in 2/4?

For solea, I find it also bizzare. If you add these notes up you end up with a cycle of 12 eight notes... but you really have 12 quarter notes per cycle...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 29 2011 17:44:27

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3431
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: question on palos structure (in reply to rogeliocan)

To my mind this is just the result of trying to write flamenco in notation developed for classical music, which usually has much shorter metric patterns. It would be even worse trying to notate an Indian raga, where the meter is often sixteen beats or more, in European classical notation.

You've just got to know the compas to make sense of the notes.

Often when studying a new score I will just Xerox it and mark the compas in pencil above the staff, one symbol for accented beats, a different one for unaccented.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 29 2011 20:10:04

chester

Posts: 891
Joined: Oct. 29 2010

RE: question on palos structure (in reply to rogeliocan)

For the Tangos:
Take the usual Bb - A progression. If you count 1 beat on each it's 2/4, if you count 2 beats (that are twice as fast) it's 4/4.

For the Solea/Buleria:
Don't worry about eighth vs quarter. If you want to think 6/8 + 3/4 then the pulse is an eighth.

On a general note - anything that's 4/4 can also be 2/4, 1/4, 8/4 etc. It's all a question of how the pulse is divided.

Let me know if it helped. If not I can try to explain a little better.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 29 2011 20:14:52

rogeliocan

Posts: 811
Joined: Nov. 23 2009
From: Canada

RE: question on palos structure (in reply to chester)

Ok, I understand that.
So is it correct to say that are used to express patterns of the cycle, not to express what you would be used as time signature on written music. For example, I would expect a solea to be written in 3/4 or maybe 4/4 but not a mix of 6/8 and 4/4.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 29 2011 20:39:58

chester

Posts: 891
Joined: Oct. 29 2010

RE: question on palos structure (in reply to rogeliocan)

Any way is possible but the question is how easy it is to read (that is true for all forms of music btw). Interchanging time signatures is confusing and in the case of flamenco where the rhythmic cycle stays the same is unnecessary imo as long as the performer is aware of where the stressed beats are.

Think of it this way - in a Buleria you have two long beats (the 6/8) and three short beats (3/4). One and ah Two and ah / Three and Four and Five and.

Helps?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 29 2011 21:11:29

rogeliocan

Posts: 811
Joined: Nov. 23 2009
From: Canada

RE: question on palos structure (in reply to chester)

Yes, you answered my questions.
Thanks

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 29 2011 22:35:48

chester

Posts: 891
Joined: Oct. 29 2010

RE: question on palos structure (in reply to rogeliocan)

No worries buddy, feel free to ask more.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 29 2011 22:57:02

Ricardo

Posts: 14845
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: question on palos structure (in reply to rogeliocan)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rogeliocan

Could someone clarify how the rhythms are described?
I see both 4/4 and 2/4 used to describe Tangos.
And I see 6/8 + 3/4 to describe solea, bulerias...

For Tangos, I understand 4/4 but the 2/4, I don't really get.
If these are only used to describe the form than, I get it, as these fall in what they call the binary rhythms. But if they are for actual bar time signature... would you every write a Tangos in 2/4?

For solea, I find it also bizzare. If you add these notes up you end up with a cycle of 12 eight notes... but you really have 12 quarter notes per cycle...

You are talking about meter and how to notate or think of it. You must first define what your beat is...is it the quarter note or the half note or somehting else? Then to be clear you need to state how fast it is...quarter note = 96 or half note =96 will change the way we write the meter....but the music sound can be the same.

As a general rule I personally prefer to always define my foot tap or march as the quarter note. In some cases of 3 or 6 rhythms, you define the dotted quarter.

So for tango or rumba, dancers count 12345678... there is no real 8/8 meter, we just call it 4 and the dancers would be counting 8th notes, doing palmas they might omit 1 and 5. So my quarter notes are on 1, 3,5, 7 (where my foot lands). At 96 bpm this phrase can be written in 4/4. But, the feel is like Bb on the first 2 beats, and the A chord on the last two beats. We encounter often the half compas so it might be safer to think of the fundamental feel as in 2/4 (cut the measure in half, nothing more), so Bb is in the first measure, the A chord in the second measure...and any half compases are not too weird.

Some people want to define the palmas as quarter notes so the foot taps are half notes...so half note = 96 but quarter =192 ...the feel is the same but we must write this as 4/4, so the Bb is now the first bar of 4 and the second bar is the A chord (same thing as in the 2/4 notated at half the speed). Like I said, a general rule for me is the foot doesn't need to go so fast, and can ALWAYS be the quarter note. Makes things easier, especially when you use a metronome that normal only goes to 208.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 2 2011 19:55:30