Dyes to stain wood before FP

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Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

Dyes to stain wood before FP

Hey all,
I've been asked to try to duplicate the "Conde orange" color with french polish. "Orange" shellac is more of a yellowy brown. I have some Jacquard aniline orange dye which is pretty much the perfect color. It is water soluble (color holds up to light much better over time than the oil/alcohol based stuff). I don't want to hit the entire guitar with a water based solution, but it says on the bottle that you can dissolve it with turpentine to use as a wood stain.
Basically I'm wondering if turpentine is an OK solvent to hit the bare wood with, or if it will penetrate too much or something like that. I'll definitely be doing tests but I'm also curious if anyone knows if turpentine based stain will stick to a seal coat of shellac (the ideal solution). Then I'll be putting clear shellac on top of the color coat.

Thanks!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 1 2011 22:54:48

krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

RE: Dyes to stain wood before FP (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

Have you tried colouring some clear shellac with the dye? Then apply it on top of your normal sealer
That may be better than dyeing the wood.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 2 2011 7:55:54

Flamingrae

Posts: 220
Joined: May 19 2009

RE: Dyes to stain wood before FP (in reply to krichards)

quote:

Have you tried colouring some clear shellac with the dye? Then apply it on top of your normal sealer
That may be better than dyeing the wood.

In the early stages of development for me but I'll share what I have so far. These are tests wiped on to thin ply to get an idea. They might not be so clear but its an idea of the results.
1st pic - various raw components - clear shellac, orange/yellow and dragons blood. I tried staining the wood on some parts but it tended to be a bit patchy. More consistent results were had when the colour was mixed with the shellac as in
2nd pic - combinations and different concentrations of dragons blood and different shellac (clear and yellow/orange). This is starting to get pretty close to that "orange" and with a few more experiments, I should get there.
In general, a nicer finish - more consistent, even, whn the shellac was dyed. There are loads of combinations - try the Hammerel varnish book for ideas.
Hope this helps - eye of toad, wing of bat, dragons blood and all of that.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 2 2011 10:13:19

Flamingrae

Posts: 220
Joined: May 19 2009

RE: Dyes to stain wood before FP (in reply to Flamingrae)

2nd pick as decribed in previous post

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 2 2011 10:15:45

estebanana

Posts: 9360
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Dyes to stain wood before FP (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

Turp on your bare wood is a bad idea.

If you think you have the color, the infamous Conde' Orange, then try tests with water. Many people stain with water as the vehicle. I've only done it a few times so I'm not an expert, but I remember it was not that difficult.

Here's two things to consider or rather the difference between staining and top coating:
If you stain and wipe it back the pigment will enter the grain structure and accentuate hard and soft grain. If you have a maple back and sides for example staining will create a strong difference between hard ande soft grain.

If you top coat with color you'll get an even layer of color, which is much more like a Conde' finish. They way to achieve it is to do a seal coat with shellac and then spray on the color coat and then spray on other coats or it clear of lighter in pigment.

Most of the typical Conde' finishes are either that polyurethane stuff or lacquer. I suspect they put the pigment in the finish and the spray it over a sealed guitar.

If you stain the guitar and later on the finish gets worn through or a chunk gets chipped out of the guitar it will be hard to fix. It's hard enough to fix that orange on Conde' as it is. I know this because I have had to color match several repairs on Conde's and I always find it super tedious.

And I'm pretty sure they color coat and not stain because I have seen a few Conde's that have been stripped and French polished. They were top coated a not stained. If they had been stained they would still be orange.

I hope that information helps in some way. But if you continue to try to reproduce Conde' finishes beyond one of two guitars, I recommend you seek mental health counciling.

Also the MIMForum finish section has a lot of members who use water stains on archtops and electrics, sunbursts etc. they are experts at staining, you might ask there. And as they say, practice on scrap.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 2 2011 15:24:44

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Dyes to stain wood before FP (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

Thanks for the help guys. Been doing various tests and I think I've found the color and application I want to use. I mixed up some of that dye with turpentine and applied it on the bottom board in my pictures. It's hard to tell in the pictures but it didn't work well on bare wood as Stephen suggested. But over a seal coat of shellac it went on very nicely with even color. So what I'm planning to do is: seal coat of shellac --> layer of dye in turpentine --> French polish with super blond shellac. This way I'll be pretty sure not to burn through any color in the final sanding, and any tiny unevenness in the thickness of the shellac will not show up as patchy color.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 2 2011 20:16:11

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Dyes to stain wood before FP (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 2 2011 20:17:20

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Dyes to stain wood before FP (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

p.s. what do you think of the color? It's garish but I think it's pretty close...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 2 2011 20:18:27

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: Dyes to stain wood before FP (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

Looks like a good match to a new Conde to me.
I know alcohol is used to remove turpentine, hopefully that works in your favour when top coating.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 2 2011 20:53:29

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Dyes to stain wood before FP (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

I havent read the other replies so sorry if this is a repeat. I am pretty sure you do not want to stain the wood ever! Always do the ground work with a clear coat then use the coloured stuff. I saw someone say top coat which is by far the best idea. the most even in finishes also.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 3 2011 10:10:30

Steve Wright

Posts: 120
Joined: May 11 2011
From: Scotland Fife UK

RE: Dyes to stain wood before FP (in reply to Stephen Eden)

quote:

I saw someone say top coat which is by far the best idea. the most even in finishes also.

This is interesting to a novice like me. I can see why you would not stain the wood (depending on the effect you want), but coloring in the top coat doesn't seem a good idea to myself. I'm just thing from the perspective of one of these lovely wooden tables that people trash by putting polyurethane on (with color) to protect the table. They do the same with skirting's (Kick-boards) around the home. As the wood receives knocks, the polyurethane starts to break and leaves you with an unstained piece of wood. This is one of the ugliest sights I have seen.

I realize that using shellacs etc is far superior to polyurethane, but would have thought that staining the top coat would still result in an ugly result by the time the guitar has had 20 years of aggressive flamenco beaten out of it. Or have I got that wrong - is this the beauty of the guitar when one sees how well it has been used?

I am learning a lot from this discussion and would welcome any response to my thoughts. Ta.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 3 2011 12:32:06

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Dyes to stain wood before FP (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deteresa1

Hey all,
I've been asked to try to duplicate the "Conde orange" color with french polish. "Orange" shellac is more of a yellowy brown. I have some Jacquard aniline orange dye which is pretty much the perfect color. It is water soluble (color holds up to light much better over time than the oil/alcohol based stuff). I don't want to hit the entire guitar with a water based solution, but it says on the bottle that you can dissolve it with turpentine to use as a wood stain.
Basically I'm wondering if turpentine is an OK solvent to hit the bare wood with, or if it will penetrate too much or something like that. I'll definitely be doing tests but I'm also curious if anyone knows if turpentine based stain will stick to a seal coat of shellac (the ideal solution). Then I'll be putting clear shellac on top of the color coat.

Thanks!

The way I put on color is to first wipe on a couple of thin clear coats of shellac, let dry. and then spray on the color I want with just enough shellac so the color doesn't run. This is sprayed on fairly dry with a shading process. Then I lock in the color with at least 5 coats of clear thin shellac, and let dry for a week. Then I start the French polish process and build up the coats and let dry a day or two. Then work some more until most of the previous spray coats are covered well. Then I sand the finish, with 600 wet and dry paper, to a flat surface, being very careful not to sand through the color, and finish it out with thin French polish. The color is transparent and very even over the entire surface of the box. Then I let the finish dry for 2 weeks and polish it out with a very light compound which creates a high gloss.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 3 2011 14:25:43

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Dyes to stain wood before FP (in reply to Sean)

quote:

I know alcohol is used to remove turpentine, hopefully that works in your favour when top coating.

weeeell, it turns out alcohol also strips off the dye that I applied with turpentine. I put shellac on my board today as directed by the dye container and it pulled off almost all the color. It might work to spray the shellac but I'm not really set up to do that. I'm going to order some of the alcohol soluble dye and see how it goes adding that to some shellac.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 3 2011 22:13:20

Jeff Highland

Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: Dyes to stain wood before FP (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

A preval sprayer works well for the small quantiities involved.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 3 2011 23:11:05

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Dyes to stain wood before FP (in reply to Jeff Highland)

quote:

A preval sprayer works well for the small quantiities involved.

excellent, thanks Jeff.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 4 2011 21:03:01

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: Dyes to stain wood before FP (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

If you spray shellac don't lay it on all wet looking, keep it light or it will eventually crack.
Oh and stay away from any sparks or open flames there's enough of those videos on youtube already

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 4 2011 22:19:32

estebanana

Posts: 9360
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Dyes to stain wood before FP (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

I never thought I would see myself writing this, but do exactly what Tom said.
Only don't ask how orange color will effect shaving the braces.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 4 2011 22:59:03

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Dyes to stain wood before FP (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

I know Stephen hill has applied colour with just a rubber and he was very cautious not to put the colour onto the wood itself. Its the same principle as top is suggeting but rubbed on not sprayed. I would probably make sure the finish is flat before adding the colour other wise it may gather in the bumps though. I think Stephen also used the Magical Reyes yellow polish with gold flecks in or something like that

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 5 2011 12:10:22

estebanana

Posts: 9360
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Dyes to stain wood before FP (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

I've done color coats on blanca's by padding over a well established clear body coat and then clear over the color. It's difficult and finicky. Spraying makes it easier and faster.

However if you take time to layer colors and not simply to get the Conde' orange, you can make beautiful surfaces and rich, rich color. It takes time and it's super labor intensive. Then a flamenco player will scuff it up just because of the nature of the playing.

But if you seal with clear and then do the classic layering of yellow, and then tone it down with brown and then some red over the top and then clear you'll get a glow in the finish that is uncommon. The colors yellow, brown and red come naturally from the shellac so you don't have to add any color. Garnet makes the red, Bysaki is usually more brownish and you can buy a lemon yellow that is bleached shellac.

It would be nice to experiment more with color in the finish, but I would go in a different direction more than making Conde' orange, like Guarneri pink, or Vuilluame Red~

I've always wondered why they used that orange, and thought is it a reference to the violin varnishes that used oranges and reds? If so once you see a real old varnish that is intact you'll never look twice at a Conde' because there is no comparison. I know that sounds snobby and well perhaps it is, but once you see a subtle translucent varnish the orange in the Conde' mixture looks brutal and garish. So I suppose I have a deep seeded bias against the orange guitar because I grew up looking at violin varnish.

I have a friend who has been experimenting with great results at using varnish on his classical guitars. Everyone says it's wrong to varnish guitars, but his finishes are light and beautiful. I'm think I might try it at some point soon. The main problem is that guitarists have come to expect a glossy glass like surface as part of the aesthetic of the guitar. Varnishing lightly can put a good protective film on the instrument, but it's more difficult to achieve that hard glassy surface the guitar world loves. In the process of building enough varnish to do that you might have to put too much varnish on the guitar. If guitarist was willing to go with a guitar that was not high gloss with subtle color I would try it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 5 2011 17:04:00

ralexander

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 5 2011 18:09:56

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: Dyes to stain wood before FP (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

I read somewhere once the garish colouring of tops was started to cover up less then stellar looking spruce, Ramirez rings a bell. Luthiers know what they did back in the day and that is a visually flawed looking lower grade top can at times out perform that visually perfect master grade top. The problem I think was selling guitars to people that looked for high tight grain counts and medullar rays as a sign of a guitars quality not its sound. One day maybe buyers will be asking about air resonances or wanting to see BS chladni patterns of a guitar before purchasing it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 5 2011 21:45:48

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: Dyes to stain wood before FP (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

Maybe I'm sick but Conde orange kinda grew on me after awhile, seems traditional for the brand, can't see owning one another colour. I do love old brown varnish on a flamed maple violin so maybe I balance out lol.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 5 2011 21:59:14

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Dyes to stain wood before FP (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

I sort of like the orange too.. one of my students had a really pink tinted guitar which made me kinda sick to look at though.
You can definitely still see the grain pattern through that orange lacquer so I dunno.
Maybe it started with Ramirez when they started cranking out the cedar top blancas, in order to match the color of the back and sides to the cedar top a little better. Many of those guitars are pretty orange, though not quite up the Conde level.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 5 2011 22:09:15

Steve Wright

Posts: 120
Joined: May 11 2011
From: Scotland Fife UK

RE: Dyes to stain wood before FP (in reply to Sean)

quote:

people that looked for high tight grain counts and medullar rays as a sign of a guitars quality

Yes, this is the way I was taught some 37 years ago. I think there is some truth in it - but the proof of the pudding is in eating it - or in this case, seeing how it performs and sounds. I have a guitar which I wouldn't have normally have bought because the grain is not tight at all but the sound is rather nice. I have always advised beginners to avoid buying simply on color or shape and to go for play-ability and sound within their budget. Having said that, my wife still insisted on getting a 'ply' guitar that looked nice. It is true that "a visually flawed looking lower grade top can at times out perform that visually perfect master grade top."

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 5 2011 23:15:16

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: Dyes to stain wood before FP (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

I think wood is flawed by nature, a top is never perfectly symmetrical, that is its strength which allows it to perform in a broader range when it comes to sound. I think a lot of master builders went farther with non symmetrical bracing to enhance this and why using artificial materials like carbon fiber to my ears sounds like something is missing in the recipe we call a guitar. Tight grain counts look good but sometimes end up to metallic sounding and are not always stiffer nor lighter then a wider board. One of the best soundboards I ever had was lower grade with knots that I cut out where the soundhole was to go.
Sorry for the lack of egghead jargon

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 6 2011 1:03:03

estebanana

Posts: 9360
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Dyes to stain wood before FP (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

I like the really good sounding guitars of Santos Hernandez, Esteso and other greats that have three piece tops. Try to sell that today... I've made three piece tops and tops of mismatched halves. They work fine if you pick the right wood. Cosmetically beautiful wood is nice, right, but you can make sound with structurally good wood whether it's cosmetically perfect or not.

The Gibson Co. used mismatched tops quite often on the best models. Of course they usually sunbursted them, although not always. Most people don't know that under that sunburst are two mismatched halves. If you sunbursted a flamenco guitar and made it sound good and it had mismatched halves, so what.

When I get time I want to make a new guitar for myself with an ugly top or a three piece top just to have to prove a point and be able show customers.

When it comes to grain lines, size does not matter.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 6 2011 3:50:23

Steve Wright

Posts: 120
Joined: May 11 2011
From: Scotland Fife UK

RE: Dyes to stain wood before FP (in reply to estebanana)

"make a new guitar for myself with an ugly top or a three piece top just to have to prove a point and be able show customers."

Stephen, this is an excellent idea.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 6 2011 12:53:14