One last "What guitar to buy" thread, I really need help!

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Skai

Posts: 317
Joined: Sep. 12 2004

One last "What guitar to buy&qu...

Sorry everyone but I've changed my target after hearing about the dangers of a mid range guitar and that they're not worth the money. Thus I've decided to go for a lower range one and these are my choices.

Yamaha CG171F (the one everyone's talking about)
Cordoba
Azahar
Manuel Rodriguez (heard that the thick finish dampens the sound)
Alhambra
Admira

For all these brands, they're probably the lowest or second lowest end flamenco guitars but which do you think is the best? While I've heard so many good things about Yamaha, I just have something for Spanish brands.

But no offence to you Sir Anders.

As for the Admira, that was my old flamenco and it sounded so classical. But I tried another one that day and it sounded different from mine. Damn inconsistency!

Does this happen all the time?

Alright I promise that this will be my last "What guitar?" thread LOL and thanks for any comments,
Cheston

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 14 2005 2:57:38

Thomas Whiteley

Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: One last "What guitar to bu... (in reply to Skai)

Cheston;

My suggestion is - Yamaha. They are good guitars and consistent in quality.

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Tom
http://home.comcast.net/~flamencoguitar/flamenco.html

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 14 2005 4:09:07

Guest

RE: One last "What guitar to bu... (in reply to Skai)

I think you should ask this guy who ordered a Yamaha. He should have it during March. Take a look in the Luthiers section and send the guy a mail.

Good luck.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 14 2005 7:21:54

gerundino63

Posts: 1744
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: One last "What guitar to bu... (in reply to Guest)

Hi Skai,

The way you search, and your demands,
I think your searching for a little more good guitar than your list is here.

There is a big risk, you buy one of these, and you want another one next year....

So, I suggest, you save your money a while, and play your old guitar for a while.

Also, the guitars you mention, all the brands hava good and bad ones, you really have to try them.
I buyed a Alhambra a few years ago for my son, and from the 4 I tried only one was very good ( for the money) 2 so,so, and 1 bad.

this are my two cents!

Peter.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 14 2005 7:56:38

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: One last "What guitar to bu... (in reply to gerundino63)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gerundino63
Also, the guitars you mention, all the brands hava good and bad ones, you really have to try them.
I buyed a Alhambra a few years ago for my son, and from the 4 I tried only one was very good ( for the money) 2 so,so, and 1 bad.

Exactly!

I keep telling you, Skai...

Jon

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 14 2005 8:33:23

Skai

Posts: 317
Joined: Sep. 12 2004

RE: One last "What guitar to bu... (in reply to Skai)

I tried the Alhambra 3F and I thought it sounded and played great! The only thing is that this lower end Alhambra has an action of about 11 or 12 mm at the bridge.

I loved the way it played and sounded for the price considering the ridiculous action. Would it be a good idea to buy it and lower the action? Any risk of getting intonation problems or too much buzzing after modifying it to 9 mm? I'd also have to buy golpeadors for it too.

The action problem isn't present in the other models, only in the lowest end 3F. In fact, the Alhambras I tried didn't sound clean! They had this slashing metallic sharp sound when I played rasguedos on it and I'm thinking that the 3F would probably get that sound after a good set up.

I previously wanted the Alhambra 7Fc but I've heard the danger of it not being worth the money. And the same applies for most mid-range guitars. I was just intending to use guitars of lower ends in the meantime and upgrade maybe 5 years later. Maybe to an Anders?

By the way, I sold my Admira months ago as that particular guitar sounded very classical. I'm presently playing an Alhambra 2c classical, not very suitable for flamenco even after lowering the action on it.

Anyway, I'm still rather bad at playing and don't need such a great guitar.

Thanks for the help guys,
Cheston

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 16 2005 0:08:51

Guest

RE: One last "What guitar to bu... (in reply to Skai)

quote:

The only thing is that this lower end Alhambra has an action of about 11 or 12 mm at the bridge.

Don't buy!!!!! It'll teach you to many bad behaviours, and you probably can't lower the saddle that much without changing the frets and shaving the fingerboard (expensive)

Skai, I understand what you say and your worries. But I still think you should ask this guy who was to receive his Yamaha this month. Ask about sound and stringheight.

Anders

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 16 2005 6:24:15

flyeogh

Posts: 729
Joined: Oct. 13 2004

RE: One last "What guitar to bu... (in reply to Skai)

Just to add to the confusion I found an Alhambra 10Fc on the spanish bit of EBay. It cost £400 and is in great condition. It is set up for flamenco and sounds great to me (but i'm no expert). As for the risk of Ebay these days you can get to spain and back (from UK)including connections for less than £100 and who needs an excuse. Having looked at all the discussion here in the foro I think you need to look for an individual guitar and not a particular model, or someone you can buy from that you trust. You can find people extremely happy and others extremely disgusted with every guitar that ever existed. (Cheston, any chance you are ever in the south of England? Nice recordings.) Nigel

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 16 2005 6:55:45

Skai

Posts: 317
Joined: Sep. 12 2004

RE: One last "What guitar to bu... (in reply to Skai)

Nope I'm from the little island Singapore

Flamenco desert here. Anyway I'm 18 now and there won't be any way of taking a guitar shopping vacation to Spain anytime soon. Thanks for the encouragement but honestly, I'm still really dissatisfied with my playing, I'm only a fraction to where I want to be.

And thanks for the warning Anders, I was hoping you'd give me advice on that. LOL I'm a difficult customer and you'll have to watch out for me.

Here's the list of prices in Singapore dollars:
- Alhambra 3F (w/o golpeadors $25 and w high action. ps. sounds good but seems like a dangerous buy.) $568
- Yamaha CG171SF $645
- Alhambra 7Fc (all solid) $1200

I tried an Almansa that costs $1080 yesterday and it sounded as good as the $1200 Alhambra. Unfortunately it wasn't fully solid and probably wouldn't age as well as the Alhambra.

As much as I'd like the Yamaha, I was thinking of getting a full solid one instead and then a luthier made one later on. Or else, I'd be saving about $600 on a cheaper guitar but I'd just buy a mid-range $1000+ guitar about 2 years later and then FINALLY a luthier guitar. That's the reason why I've been trying to decide between the 2 price ranges in order to save me the trouble of upgrading twice.

The other reason is that I felt that the Alhambra had the potential do significantly better than the Yamaha if only the action was set to flamenco standards. It had flamenco bite for such a cheap guitar with ridiculous action and that was why I thought that action could be lowered and I'd be happy.

But I guess not and I was worried that the guitar wouldn't allow me to lower it's action to 9mm.

Plus, an all solid guitar would age better and have a better resale value in the rare case that I want/need to sell it.

Alright I'll try the Yamaha today and see if I really like it.

It's the last piece left in Singapore even though I don't see many classical players, let alone flamenco.

Sorry for the trouble guys,
Cheston

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 17 2005 0:18:57

flyeogh

Posts: 729
Joined: Oct. 13 2004

RE: One last "What guitar to bu... (in reply to Skai)

No trouble – that’s what the foro is for. I have not been in Singapore for several years and as a shopping venue it is of course well known but the prices you have for the Alhambras seem excellent. Here in the UK a 7 is going to be more than £550 (1650SD) and a 10 more than £800 (2400SD). My 10Fc although I'm in no hurry to lose it even though I have upgraded since, I would want £450. It is in general good condition, a real flamenco and not a converted classical, but being 4 years old is clearly secondhand. I guess you could buy it new for the same price? So despite you being in the desert it looks like your prices are really keen. I guess it is as you say a matter of availability and choice.

Anyway you obviously have some talent so don't let it get you down. The gitanos of Andalusia do not in general have expensive wonderful hand crafted instruments but they can certainly bring flamenco alive and play it with soul. Good Luck, Nigel.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 17 2005 7:48:17

Skai

Posts: 317
Joined: Sep. 12 2004

RE: One last "What guitar to bu... (in reply to Skai)

Well there's a nice little piano shop that deals with Alhambra and somehow manages to bring them in at a much lower price.

Anyway I tried the Yamaha today and didn't find that much punch in it. That's what you get for the price. I did try the Manuel Rodriguez C3F ($661) today and somehow that particular piece sounded much better than everything else I tried around the price range, just about as good as the Alhambra 7Fc ($1200). There was a slight damage to the finish near the neck so I'm trying to find a new piece that hopefully sounds as good.

The guitar, however, has no golpeador. Could someone tell me just how difficult it is to attach it and what the dangers are when installing it myself? To be honest, I'm rather apprehensive about installing it myself and any mistakes I make would be irreversible. I was thinking of doing without a golpeador since spruce tops usually seem quite hard and resistant to my golpes.

Thanks guys,
Cheston

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 17 2005 12:30:58

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

RE: One last "What guitar to bu... (in reply to Skai)

Cheston,
Good luck with finding that new guitar! My new Yamaha is due in a couple of weeks. The yamaha generally has a good reputation with Flamenco guitarists, and as I am new to Flamenco, it seemed a suitable "first Flamenco guitar". Personally, I would have prefered a real Spanish guitar, but my budget didn't seem to stretch to a good one. I did want a Rodriguez (one of the most famous names in luthiery), and am still considering getting one just for variation, but perhaps one of their cheaper models (as long as it plays well!). If you can find a Rodriguez within your price range that you like the sound of, I'd go for it. Especially if you're not keen on the competition. Ultimately though, as other members have said, each guitar is different, and one Rodriguez might be good and another bad, or one Yamaha good and another bad. You have the right idea- it's always best to try before you buy. I would have done so had the option been available. So just keep trying out different guitars until you find the *perfect* one for you- it may be a Rodriguez, or even a Yamaha. I think finding the most suitable guitar is more important than whether it holds its value, as if it is that good, you may never want to sell it!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 17 2005 17:15:16

el ted

Posts: 466
Joined: Nov. 13 2003

RE: One last "What guitar to bu... (in reply to Skai)

Amongst my fleet of guitars I have a Yamaha CG171SF a Granados9F and a Alhambra 7f, The Granados has the must punch, the Alhambra has the best flamenco tone, but the Yamaha which sort of falls between both stools was the cheapest.
If you are a youngster, cost and playablity are important factors. The best way to sort it, is to play as many guitars as possible before you buy, difficult due to your location.

ps Hey Anders, that is a mighty attractive webpage you have there!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 18 2005 11:06:36

Guest

RE: One last "What guitar to bu... (in reply to Skai)

Good advices Ted

And thanks for the nice words. Have you tried the L.A. Negra yet?

Anders

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 18 2005 16:11:46

Skai

Posts: 317
Joined: Sep. 12 2004

RE: One last "What guitar to bu... (in reply to Skai)

Well the 2 Manuel Rodriguez sounded very good for the price and had a nice action. However it's workmanship was pathetic, though it was simply something cosmetic. I still felt that it would be a waste of my money. Plus there wasn't a golpeador again! Thus, I'm rather set on the Alhambra 7Fc due to it's better resale value(just in case

), it being full solid(age better), golpeadors, action and sound.

Just another question, is it advisable to install golpeadors myself? I'm rather apprehensive about doing so as I'd probably make a mess of a new guitar. While small bubbles don't affect the sound, it'll just make me feel like $h!+ and now I'm sure nobody would want to do that right?

Thanks for all the help,
Cheston

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Try some Enrique Iglesias for some great cante.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 19 2005 1:50:39

Guest

RE: One last "What guitar to bu... (in reply to Skai)

Skai.

Don't think to much about resale value etc. I'm quite sure the Alhambra 7fc is a good guitar for you if the action is good (max 9mm) and you like the sound. It's a well build guitar and it does the thing. You can find better guitars for the money, but they are not in Singapore, so what does it help, and besides, the others in the price range will still be factory guitars!!!!!
I think you are very right when you say that you need a guitar for the next 5 years or so. But 5 years is a long time, so buy a guitar you like if you can afford it. It will give you the money back.
If you buy one of the cheaper ones. Simply demand that the seller install the golpeadores without extra charge. A guitar without a golpeadeor is not a flamenco guitar, and you will end up destroying it or ruining your technique because you are afraid of ruining the guitar.

This with names is not important. A Manuel Rodriguez in this price range is a factory guitar, most probably from Valencia, and Mr. Rodriguez, most probably has never seen the guitar. It's just a way of making money.

Good luck.
Anders

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 19 2005 6:43:42

Skai

Posts: 317
Joined: Sep. 12 2004

RE: One last "What guitar to bu... (in reply to Skai)

Thank you everyone, once again, for so much great advice. I'm quite set on the full solid bodied Alhambra now.

In fact, I'm intending to go much further in classical, rather than flamenco guitar. Flamenco is something to help me develop technique, to help in the interpretion of Spanish classical pieces and most importantly, something to enjoy. It will probably my first and last upgrade of a flamenco guitar. A luthier guitar I'll get will probably be a classical guitar.

Just a last question to Anders, what should be the optimal action for a good classical guitar (ie. no buzz but still comfortable)? Any other things I should look out for apart from sound and feel?

Thanks everyone, it's the people who have made this forum such an important part of my playing. And I'm thankful just for the forum itself too..

Take care,
Cheston

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 20 2005 1:49:01

Guest

RE: One last "What guitar to bu... (in reply to Skai)

quote:

Just a last question to Anders, what should be the optimal action for a good classical guitar (ie. no buzz but still comfortable)? Any other things I should look out for apart from sound and feel?

Depending on playing style and strings, between 3,5 and 4mm 6th string above 12th fret.

Anders.

PS. Let us know when you've got your new flamenco guitar.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 20 2005 7:28:13

Skai

Posts: 317
Joined: Sep. 12 2004

RE: One last "What guitar to bu... (in reply to Skai)

Sure thing, maybe I'll post an audio clip or something.

When you take measurements, I assume you should be taking the measurement between the top of the 12th fret and the bottom of the string?

Thanks,
Cheston

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 21 2005 12:11:18

flyeogh

Posts: 729
Joined: Oct. 13 2004

RE: One last "What guitar to bu... (in reply to Skai)

Cheston, Anders offered this in reply to your question:
"The answer is from the top of the fret to the bottom of the string. Since
frets can vary a lot in height, there's no logic in measuring from the wood."

I must admit I thought otherwise as my Bernal measured this way is much less than 3mm. Is this why I find it so comfortable? (Before anyone asks I did remember to remove the capo especially after getting a rolicking from my teacher for not removing it between sessions!!

).

But Cheston just a thought. Do you have to be really careful with a guitar in such a climate as you have there? Nigel

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 21 2005 15:18:32

Guest

RE: One last "What guitar to bu... (in reply to Skai)

Oups, very fast there Nigel

Much less than 3mm sounds very comfortable and very buzzy as well. Are you sure that you have good messuring tools?

A normal Luthier setup is around 3,2mm. This gives a neutral guitar with hardly any buzzing. I normally deliver a guitar with a 3mm setup and provide an extra saddle with a higher action, so that the player can fiddle with it the way he wants. The best thing is to come to my place and pick up the guitar. Then I do a personal setup. IMO you cannot go much lower than 3mm without loosing a lot of punch, volume and tonal qualitys, but some want it LOW, so they get LOW

Anders

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 21 2005 15:55:37

flyeogh

Posts: 729
Joined: Oct. 13 2004

RE: One last "What guitar to bu... (in reply to Skai)

Anders I'm becoming very worried about you. Listening to the customer!!! Letting them fiddle with it!! I know you used to play violin but that is going too far. As for "punch, volume and tonal qualities" thats not the fault of the guitar but I'm working on that; hopefully one day soon.

My measuring tool is a pile of business cards (new and clean) and a rule. But the VB clearly has much less action than my Burguet or Alhambra. As far as buzzing I note far less than on the Burguet especially now the burguet has those metallic composite D'Addario strings someone here recommended. (Anyone want to buy 9 sets cheap? - you get seven strings in each set; useful for ??? who knows!!). The Alhambra plays great without buzzing but it just doesn't feel like I could play it all day, unlike the VB. It may have cracks, a scratch, a golpeadore that has seen better days, but to me you can feel the love and care of the maker. But then I haven't tried the best yet. Nigel

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 21 2005 16:24:27

Guest

RE: One last "What guitar to bu... (in reply to Skai)

quote:

My measuring tool is a pile of business cards

Ah - ha.... You have a pile of business cards. I only have one. LOL

This with buzzing has a lot to do with final adjustments. Factory guitars (Alhambra and Burguet) normally never get any kind of final adjustment. And if 1 fret is higher, you'll have to raise the setup a lot in order to not have to much buzzing.

BTW. I love that 3rd string from the composite set, so I'll take the 9 sets if they are medium tension.

Anders

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 22 2005 7:21:20

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: One last "What guitar to bu... (in reply to Skai)

Anders. How do i get to Granada the easyest way? and cheap.
Most airlines in sweden only take you to the beaches never to any citys in the south of spain.
Kanarie öarna,malaga,costa del sol etc.
The citys are Madrid and Barcelona. It seems to be realy difficult to get to cadiz,seville,jerez and granada.
Do you ever go home to denmark? What airline do you use?

Henrik

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This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 22 2005 7:40:16

Escribano

Posts: 6417
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: One last "What guitar to bu... (in reply to duende)

There must be flights to Malaga, no? Hire a car with carjet.com (look for Centauro as the cheapest) and it's a 1.5 hour drive to Granada. Any cheap flights to London from Sweden? You can fly direct to Granada very cheap from there if you time it right.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 22 2005 8:29:01

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: One last "What guitar to bu... (in reply to Skai)

going to London is usualy between 25€!!! to 100€ lots of swedes go to london so it´s very cheap deppending on what airline of course. hm the car question is a far worse problem.
I don´t have a license

My girlfirend does so if she comes along it´s ok.

I´ve check some prices to fly to seville and thats tooo expensive for me.
how much would it cost me to go from London to granada?

Henrik

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 22 2005 10:17:46

flyeogh

Posts: 729
Joined: Oct. 13 2004

RE: One last "What guitar to bu... (in reply to Skai)

Henrik

If you get to London you can easily get to Madrid. I use London/Madrid with Easyjet.com - just book ahead and its really cheap, then you can get a coach to almost anywhere for peanuts. Try http://www.continental-auto.es but there are others. It takes time of course but you get to see the countryside. I think over 5 hours for Madrid - Granada, but comfy buses, your flamenco CDs and the land of Don Quijote passing by - what could be better. And while your objective might be the home of Flamenco in the south do spend a little time looking at Madrid, you will not be dissappointed (IMHO). On the other hand there are lots of holiday airlines (as well as Easyjet) doing London - Malaga if not direct from Sweden as Simon suggests. These of course are a little more expensive in the season. It also might be worth trying the London to weird regional airports. I recently went London Valladolid with Ryanair.com for £19 return including taxes (£6 fare and £13 tax).Do be aware however that out of city travel as opposed to inter city travel in my experience does need patience - it is the land of manana after all

. Nigel

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 22 2005 11:36:31

Skai

Posts: 317
Joined: Sep. 12 2004

RE: One last "What guitar to bu... (in reply to Skai)

Not much problem where I live. While it is really humid here in Singapore, at least I don't have to worry about dryness. But anyway, I have the air-conditioner turned on at night and my guitar case is left open. No issues with the weather here.

Too bad I've not many guitar choices in Singapore or I wouldn't have to get an Alhambra. Darn it, my pay cheque isn't ready yet. Can't wait to use almost 90% of it on that Alhambra LOL..

But I'd be broke right after that

Btw I LOVE those Composites 3rd strings. Is the Composites hard-tension set or the Savarez hard-tension set a better choice? In terms of volume, tone and feel.

Cheston

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 22 2005 11:48:38

Escribano

Posts: 6417
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: One last "What guitar to bu... (in reply to duende)

quote:

how much would it cost me to go from London to granada?

Try www.ryanair.com for London Stansted to Granada (GRX) - play around with the dates to get cheaper options.

Buses are pretty good when you arrive.

Let me know if you are going to be there during the first part of May.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 22 2005 12:28:10

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: One last "What guitar to bu... (in reply to Skai)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Skai
Btw I LOVE those Composites 3rd strings. Is the Composites hard-tension set or the Savarez hard-tension set a better choice? In terms of volume, tone and feel.

I like bright strings too. Not much in it as regards tone, IMO, that Savarez alliance 3rd string is a very nice 3rd too. I thought that the Savarez Alliance normal tension were a little firmer (higher tension) than the D'Addario normal composites, so I assume at the high tension end things would be the same. Composites need to be played in quite a bit before they reach optimal tone, too. They sound a bit weird and a little too metallic when you first put them on. D'Addario recommend several hours playing them in before the tone is right, but I recknon thats optimistic and they sound better after a day or two on the guitar. Savarez don't seem to have that issue, but I thought the basses didn't last as long as the composites.

The only thing that puts me off Savarez is the price - in the UK D'Addarios are easy to get hold of and are about the cheapest of all the quality strings.

Jon

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 22 2005 12:40:02