chug! chug!

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Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

chug! chug!

Chug! Chug!, what's wrong, you folks not playing, listening these days, ran out of petrol?

Jim.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 30 2004 18:34:26

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: chug! chug! (in reply to Jim Opfer)

I've been programming all day. Now I'm relaxing with a beer and seeing if the buleria has found its way into my playing by osmosis - sadly, not yet

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 30 2004 20:34:17

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: chug! chug! (in reply to Jim Opfer)

LOL! Jim,
Actually I'm busy having problems with falsetas from Fandangos de Huelva at the moment!
Everybody thinks they know this one (as Bom de Bom de BOM BOM BOM)
(Yeah, we all know FdH, yawn, lets move on to something more complicated.)
Great, but try some of the more adventurous falsetas and you'll find yourself up against a timing issue just as difficult as Bulerias IMO.
This is a difficult toque to get right, unless you are playing a pre-arranged thing or something you've heard off a record and are just playing it as a "tune".
Try accompanying one to a CD and get the chord changes *exactly* in the right place.
And that's just to begin with!
It's dead easy to throw the 3/4 timing from the first beat, to the second or even third during a falseta and end up totally out.
Anybody else had this experience?
Difficult toque IMO.

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 30 2004 20:44:06

Conrad

Posts: 533
Joined: Jul. 16 2003
From: Toronto, ON, Canada

RE: chug! chug! (in reply to Ron.M)

Funny you mention it. I felt like I was the only one with this problem. So many falsetas sound as if they don't resolve properly. I still have not trained my ear to hear the rhythm with the correct accentuation. Like you say, it is so easy to start counting 1 2 3 from beat 2 or 3. I can't explain this. I think that perhaps in the transcription of the oral tradition of flamenco, in other words, the translation to musical notation, someone with power mistakenly counted the start of bars in Fandango wrongly.

I actually find Buleria easy. Fandango is torturous for me.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 31 2004 0:14:13

Guest

RE: chug! chug! (in reply to Ron.M)

Ron

Fandangos is defined by its basic palmas, which are xCCxCx repeated. This is the rhythm played to accompany the cante: If you count, it is 1,2,3,4,5,6. The first chord (G7, or A for Fandangos de Almonaster or Calañas) falls on the third beat of this pattern and all other changes on the same beat.

The singer will often sing an extra 6 over any chord and all the guitar has to do is keep playing this rhythm and delay the next change. Sometimes the chord change can be delayed until the 5th beat of the sequence, to accommodate the cante or to offer a little variety, but this is not usual.

Falsetas may maintain this pulse or simply be played in units of 6 or 12, resolving to the typical Am, G, F, E llamada. You will need to learn the whole sequence por medio too.

Suerte

Sean

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 31 2004 10:18:30

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Fandangos de Huelva (in reply to Guest)

Thanks Sean,
I think what I'm going to to is just listen to the same singer with the same guitarist for a while and get used to their style (extra 6's etc) and ways of syncopation otherwise it clouds the issue.
The problem I find with this one, rather than the "12 beat" cycles is that where the 12 beat cycle can be separated into two distinct 6 beat patterns, Fandangos de Huelva just go round and round, so sometimes, (if I'm not playing with a visual metronome) the phrasing in a falseta sounds like...
1 2 3 4 5 (6)
when in fact it's actually going..
2 3 4 5 6 (1)

Everything sounds OK until you get to the resolving part, then you discover you're out!

An accident "black spot" for me is the final E.
It's dead easy to give a 2 beat strum after the golpe, making you start on the 1 instead of launching into the falseta on the (previous) 2.

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 31 2004 12:06:28

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: chug! chug! (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

It's dead easy to throw the 3/4 timing from the first beat, to the second or even third during a falseta and end up totally out.
Anybody else had this experience?

I play Fandangos but always had difficulty fitting what I play into the beat that underlays my tune. Musically it's correct, but I never feel confident understanding the correct placement of the golpe.

Rafael went over Fandangos at the Bath Festival course this year and explained it very clearly.
His point was that the pulse/beat/compas was 3 beats continually repeating with golpe on beat 3.
Now in the tune (if you think about the standard E7 to Am change) the tendancy is to think that Am change (the musical change) is on count 3 but infact it's on count 2. In other words the golpe comes one beat after the chord change.
Everything falls into place if you can keep this going, it's hard however, because as guitarists we are focused on the tune and tend to feel the need to place the golpe with the chord change and that's wrong.

Yes Ron, it's a squirmer.

Jim.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 31 2004 12:15:45

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: chug! chug! (in reply to Escribano)

quote:

I've been programming all day. Now I'm relaxing with a beer and seeing if the buleria has found its way into my playing by osmosis - sadly, not yet

Thought Microsoft could have developed a Buleria chip Just heat it in the oven for 20mins, serve on a plate and eat.
Would save all that practice time.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 31 2004 12:20:36

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: chug! chug! (in reply to Jim Opfer)

quote:

His point was that the pulse/beat/compas was 3 beats continually repeating with golpe on beat 3.
Now in the tune (if you think about the standard E7 to Am change) the tendancy is to think that Am change (the musical change) is on count 3 but infact it's on count 2.

Jim,
I'm puzzled by this (are you sure you're remembering it correctly?)
Rafael showed me the standard E7 to Am etc sequence as the golpe on 1 and the Am chord change on 3.
In fact I dug out a tape he made for me demonstrating this when I was down to see him, and on it he says "Like this...(playing)..make sure the golpe is always on the 1".
And the Am is on beat 3.

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 31 2004 12:38:10

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: chug! chug! (in reply to Ron.M)

Jim,
I've just realized he's saying the same thing...only he's shifted the numbers.
Perhaps he thought this was a better way for students to grasp it?
Ah...the numbers..the numbers...where would we be without the numbers LOL!
Just goes to show that they can be a help and a hindrance at the same time.

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 31 2004 13:10:39

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: chug! chug! (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

I'm puzzled by this (are you sure you're remembering it correctly?)
Rafael showed me the standard E7 to Am etc sequence as the golpe on 1 and the Am chord change on 3.
In fact I dug out a tape he made for me demonstrating this when I was down to see him, and on it he says "Like this...(playing)..make sure the golpe is always on the 1".
And the Am is on beat 3.

Are we not saying the same thing? No, you're right, easier to understand with golpe on 1, chord change on 3 with second golpe (1) the beat after.

Thanks Ron.

Jim.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 31 2004 15:09:10

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: chug! chug! (in reply to Jim Opfer)

Jim,
I think this is how the "rhythm" method (LOL!) works better than counting.

As Sean says....

quote:

xCCxCx repeated

Is the only trustworthy way. (As described in "Understanding Flamenco" also.)

The point I was trying to make earlier was really about the "starting" point of some traditional falsetas.
If you're not careful you can start on beat 1 when in fact they start on beat 2.
And be extra careful with the "modern" ones!

(BTW Simon it may be an idea to change the header of this thread to "Fandangos de Huelva" rather than "chug chug" as folk may want to search out this info at a later date and would have to do a search under "chug" LOL!)

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 31 2004 16:05:03

El Craic

Posts: 164
Joined: Jul. 28 2003
From: Atlantic battered NW Ireland

RE: chug! chug! (in reply to Jim Opfer)

Yeah we were having a bash in Belfast with Fandangos de Huelva last Friday, with eccentric cantaor Rolando de Lisburn, who Sean will be familiar with

Playing Rafa's rasgueado compas follows the beats which Sean lays out in the palmas patterns but he told us think in threes and yes accent the 3 and i certainly find that this feels natural and keeps me right. Myself and the other guy John Flanigan talked about the two ways of looking at it ie Sean's pattern which is what John does and Rafa's suggestion of thinking in threes and in reality both are there. I think....I always open to changing my mind - typical Libran... I've been listening as well to different FdH recordings both and older, that I have (I get paranoid and like to check myself).

Another 10 years on compas and I'll be ready for a falseta!!!!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2004 12:38:50

Guest

RE: chug! chug! (in reply to El Craic)

If you have problems with compas por Fandangos, try playing Verdiales, which is much more in 3´s: i.e. thumb, rasgeo, rasgeo etc. ad nauseam.

If you have ever listened to Fandangos sung and played by real Onubienses (people from Huelva

, this pattern is used for some styles but the pattern I outlined is used for Alonso and most of Huelva city, probably 80% of what you will hear.

In Huelva a guitarist who specialises in Fandangos is called a guitarrero: everywhere else this means guitar maker. Try listening to Juan Diaz. In Huelva, Fandangos de Huelva is a whole world in itself. If you really want to play it, you will have to go and live there!

Sean

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2004 13:25:35

El Craic

Posts: 164
Joined: Jul. 28 2003
From: Atlantic battered NW Ireland

RE: chug! chug! (in reply to Jim Opfer)

hey sean...

yeah well, maybe next lifetime..

Thanks for the info!! I'm listening to that Paco Sevilla batch of tapes whihc I think were probably yours originally, were they? 30 hours of just scratching the surface of flamenco, i think!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2004 13:43:07

Guest

RE: chug! chug! (in reply to Jim Opfer)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2005 16:09:32

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: chug! chug! (in reply to Jim Opfer)

EMMA!

What are you up to these days!??

I feel FDH like 12 beats for the intro chording and letras. the thoese middle sections i feel like
6 beats

Henrik

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This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2005 16:28:50

Guest

RE: chug! chug! (in reply to Jim Opfer)

Hey Ron, the important thing for me was to learn how to tap my foot to the "accented" beat. Regardless of how you count it, for me, I tap my foot once every three beats, and play off of that feel. It is like a waltz, but very slowwwww. I think of it as 6/4: ONE two three, FOUR five six, accenting musically beats "three" and "five", but feeling "one" and "four" very heavy.

But I understand what Jim was saying. Counting it as "one two THREE", etc, helps to overlay this phrase of 12 counts w/ Solea, Alegria, Buleria, etc, where you would feel 3,6,9,12 w/ the foot, but change chord on 2, and accent 4 w/ rasgueao, and the GFE progression would come on 6,7,8, w/ the final strum on 10. That would be an attempt at using the 12 count method to be the one and only way to apply math to flamenco rhythms. But the feel really is just in 3, w/ the repeating accents happening in 6's like Sean said. Starting falsetas on non accented beats are felt like pick up phrases that lead into down beats. Just learn to play off of, with, and around your slow steady foot and you will get it. Learn to accent your phrases on the down beats too. Sevillanas has a similar feeling guitar-wise.

(foot)-E7-Am-(foot)-Am-Am-(foot)-F-E-(foot)-falseta starts-

Looks weird, but learn to keep that foot going and take care w/ what happens in the space between foot taps. Some falsetas may start on a foot tap like this familiar one:

E-------0------------/--0---------------0--/
B-------0------------/--0---------------0--/
G-------1------------/--1-----------0--0--/
D-------2--3-2-0----/--0-----------3-----/
A-2-3-------------4-/------3-2-0---3----/
E--------------------/---------------------/

E----------0-----------0-------------0-----/---------0------------0---------/
B-------------------------------------------/---------------------------------/
G-------------------------------------------/---------------------------------/
D------3----------3-------------3----------/---------------------------------/
A----3-------3-2----------2-0-----------0-/----0-------------0-------------/
E--------------------------------------------/-3----------3-1----------1-0--/

The next bar would be the E chord strum after the foot tap to finish up. So you have to focus on the notes w/ the foot; accenting them helps. Each bar has the foot only once, on the down beat. So that is the first B note, the E7 chord w/ open D string bass, the single 5th str. C note of the alzapua, and the G note on the 6th string of the alzapua. The rest you have to learn to feel in the spaces between taps. Do this for all your falsetas and you will eventually get a natural feel for the phrasing.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 17 2005 10:45:43