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Keeping right hand I & M economical?   You are logged in as Guest
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Reinhart

 

Posts: 30
Joined: Sep. 25 2008
 

Keeping right hand I & M economical? 
Havn't posted in awhile and just got a quick question about right hand I & M Picado Technique.

I've just recently saw a video of me playing live and I was looking at my I & M right hand fingers when playing picado and they seem to be moving alot! Should I focus on keeping them more close to the strings when alternating? When i look at paco lucia, it doesnt even look like his moving his fingers. . . any advice would be appreciated.

Also in general is there any other ways to improve right hand I M Alternating speed? For example if I just sit on a coach and try to alternate my fingers as fast as possible, it just feels very limited sometimes.

I know from years of practice It will improve but Would just like some tips please. My current speed is about 130 bmp 16th notes on metronome when im warmed up. But not continues. . . and when im playing live it can get abit sloppy as i just discovered :-/

Thanks in advance
Reinhardt
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 10 2010 17:57:59
 
Reinhart

 

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Joined: Sep. 25 2008
 

RE: Keeping right hand I & M economical? (in reply to Reinhart) 
Well, I guess I answered my own questions here but have been trying the last couple of days to focus on keeping my righthand I & M fingers very tight and close by the strings as possible and it definatly increased my speed and accuracy!

Would still like to hear some of your views on the subject thankyou.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 12 2010 8:11:07
 
at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: Keeping right hand I & M economical? (in reply to Reinhart) 
one thing that has helped me was practicing picado staccato. as soon as one finger played a string, the other would jump up to stop it. even when playing and letting the notes ring as opposed to stopping them, it trained my fingers to be much more economical.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 12 2010 14:04:02
 
Reinhart

 

Posts: 30
Joined: Sep. 25 2008
 

RE: Keeping right hand I & M economical? (in reply to at_leo_87) 
Hi there at_leo_87, im having a hard time figuring out what you explained. You are only talking about the right hand now? Can you maybe explain abit more please or give a link to a video or something? It sounds very interesting but just cant seem to figure out exactly what u mean.

Thanks
Reinhardt
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 12 2010 15:29:34
 
at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: Keeping right hand I & M economical? (in reply to Reinhart) 
we're talking about picado right? im assuming you dont understand the staccato part so apologies ahead of time if i misunderstood.

play the high E with I. while pushing down with I, move your M finger up and stop the E string from ringing too long. after striking the string, the I finger should now be resting on the B string while the M finger should be planted and ready to strike the E string. now repeat with opposite fingers. same procedure, one finger strikes the string and rests while the other damps the string and prepares to play.

hope that made sense.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 12 2010 17:20:31
 
Reinhart

 

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Joined: Sep. 25 2008
 

RE: Keeping right hand I & M economical? (in reply to at_leo_87) 
Yes im speaking about Picado sorry, ok awesome i think i got it, so when Pushing down with I i then basicly move my M up and then down to mute the high e string right?
But you cant play scales like this very fast right . . ? only open strings for practicing economical movement for the right hand?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 12 2010 18:54:12
 
at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: Keeping right hand I & M economical? (in reply to Reinhart) 
quote:

Yes im speaking about Picado sorry, ok awesome i think i got it, so when Pushing down with I i then basicly move my M up and then down to mute the high e string right?
But you cant play scales like this very fast right . . ? only open strings for practicing economical movement for the right hand?


well, if you think about it, you have to move up your M finger to play after you play with I anyways. so do it one move. it's the same concept as retracting the other fingers while playing an I upstroke in continuous rasgueados so that they're prepared to strike next. while you're striking, you're also preparing.

this will economize your movements enabling you to play faster and with more ease and control. when you play up to speed, you wont notice the stacatto effect as much.

i remember when i first started practicing this way, planting the finger ready to play next felt like a conscious effort. but now it just feels like all i have to do is let go and it defaults back to playing position.

i would give this a try with open strings so that you dont mistakenly use your left hand to create the staccato effect, but eventually, do it with everything, scales, runs, etc.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 12 2010 20:01:20
 
at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: Keeping right hand I & M economical? (in reply to Reinhart) 
i should have just found some ricardo quotes from the start

quote:

One "secret" I discovered for keeping the fingers from moving too much, is to practice stacato with the right hand. Doesn't have to be a scale necessarily, but any melody you play with i-m. The idea is to plant the finger on the string first. When alternating fingers,after one finger plays, the next finger comes in REALLY quick and mutes the string in the "ready" position.

If you play 8th notes for example (BING BING BING), the muting happens in rhythm like a 16th note rest, between each 8th note (BIP BIP BIP). In effect, you are moving your fingers twice the speed necessary to prepare each stroke. If you watch your hand in the mirror, you will be surprised how efficient your movements look after practice stacato. Also you will notice you don't need to play hard to make it loud.


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 12 2010 20:23:04
 
Reinhart

 

Posts: 30
Joined: Sep. 25 2008
 

RE: Keeping right hand I & M economical? (in reply to at_leo_87) 
Greatly appreciated man, Ive got it right from your second post and already getting the hang of it :) Much respect!

And that song of yours on the international forum album sounds great! I only got to listen to the demo but will register and buy it soon :)

CHeers
Reinhardt
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 12 2010 21:04:17
 
Ramon Amira

 

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: Keeping right hand I & M economical? (in reply to Reinhart) 
When I was living in California many years ago I was friendly with Pepe Romero. Pepe's advice on this subject was somewhat similar to that given by Ricardo and at_leo. Pepe told me to approach playing picado as follows: FIRST you make contact with the string. THEN you press. Then you release. If you do this at a slow tempo, you will get a somewhat staccato effect at first - on the same string, but as the tempo increases, and as that three-step sequence becomes more natural and fluent, it is no longer staccato.

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Classical and flamenco guitars from Spain Ramon Amira Guitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 12 2010 21:24:43
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Keeping right hand I & M economical? (in reply to at_leo_87) 
I have done a lot of experimenting with staccato/non-staccato and i think the important thing is not so much the actual sound effect of the staccato but the planting

quote:

The idea is to plant the finger on the string first.


quote:

If you do this at a slow tempo, you will get a somewhat staccato effect at first ...... but as the tempo increases.....it is no longer staccato.


exercise from manolo sanlucar here

http://www.youtube.com/user/flamencoprofessor#p/c/4D9CCB920D5C71CB/15/VYCfSTY1EMc
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 12 2010 23:14:37
 
NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
 

RE: Keeping right hand I & M economical? (in reply to at_leo_87) 
quote:

well, if you think about it, you have to move up your M finger to play after you play with I anyways...


Unless you're moving to a lower-pitched string, in which case it's counterproductive to raise your finger.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 13 2010 11:58:18
 
Reinhart

 

Posts: 30
Joined: Sep. 25 2008
 

RE: Keeping right hand I & M economical? (in reply to Reinhart) 
One question though, when moving from low E string down to high E string it feels as if its way better to repeat the same fingering?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 13 2010 12:44:13
 
at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: Keeping right hand I & M economical? (in reply to NormanKliman) 
quote:

Unless you're moving to a lower-pitched string, in which case it's counterproductive to raise your finger.


right, i think you once described the sensation as hugging the contour. here it is!
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=119006&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=contour&tmode=&smode=&s=#119080

quote:

One question though, when moving from low E string down to high E string it feels as if its way better to repeat the same fingering?


here it can get a bit confusing. lol. i prefer to use strict alternation and haven't run into any passages where i feel i need to repeat a finger. but people have opposing views.

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=107589&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=picado&tmode=&smode=&s=#107860

i couldn't figure out how to post from the beginning of each thread but start from the beginning, there's a lot of important stuff.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 13 2010 14:52:17
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