caracoles vid!

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caracoles vid!

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Stu

Posts: 2537
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

caracoles vid!

I asked before about caracoles as I have to do it for dance class next term.
I have recently been listening to some and watching some vids.

Although i remeber ricardo mentioning it changes key briefly at the end i still dont really know what sets this apart from cantinas or others in that family....is it just the songs thats obviously different and doies the guitar not alter that much??

anyway I found this one.

anyone know who the guitarist is? and whats the story with this singer?
saw some other youtube vids of hers getting slammed...but maybe thats just youtube crap talk.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 26 2010 0:01:18

NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007

RE: caracoles vid! (in reply to Stu)

The letras for caracoles have an odd structure (meter). Apparently it used to be an old theater song that flamenco singers added to their repertoire, especially Antonio Chacón.

But for guitarists, the distinguishing feature is the part that goes to E-F (didn't you notice that???). Like other cantiñas and alegrías in C, it's also important to use the F chord at the right moments.

If you or the singer are not sure about where the E-F part comes in, you'll both be waiting for the other to give the first sign, and somebody might jump the gun. So it's a good idea to have a look at the letra. She sings two of the classic ones, and the E-F part comes in at "Juan León." In the video, the guitarist knows exactly when this is going to happen because he's following the letra. Here are the two letras she sings, taken from one of Chacón's recordings:

La gran calle de Alcalá
como reluce
cuando suben y bajan
los andaluces

Vámonos,vámonos
al café de la Unión
en donde para Curro Cúchares
el Tato y Juan León

(Follow this link to see the letras and hear the audio of the Chacón recording.)

I didn't see the YouTube comments, but we all know that videos draw a lot of stupid talk from all kinds of people, including Spanish aficionados. I think she did a fine job. She sounds a lot more flamenca than some of the other girls who've studied at the Cristina Heeren foundation. The teachers there are very good so I don't know why it is, but a number of girls who've studied there have voices that aren't really suitable for flamenco. It's got more to do with the way things are today than with the foundation.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 26 2010 7:38:25

tilsitter

Posts: 21
Joined: Jul. 16 2007

RE: caracoles vid! (in reply to Stu)

....I think the Guitarist is Javi Gomez, I´m not sure but he looks alot like him and at 0:13 somebody says "Javi". Besides, he´s a teacher at the fondacion...
Cheers

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 26 2010 8:20:19

mrMagenta

Posts: 942
Joined: Oct. 25 2006
From: Sweden

RE: caracoles vid! (in reply to NormanKliman)

It's a very cool style. I like that shift!
Singer does a great job imo!

quote:

a number of girls who've studied there have voices that aren't really suitable for flamenco.

Hey Norman. This sentence got me thinking. What constitutes a voice in this case?

There are my non-expert thoughts.
Singers have a tough time, many people support the idea that you are either born with it, or not.

I'm however sure most people have the anatomical resources to sing flamenco.
It would be difficult if everyone had to sing like el Zambo, but I would say the palette of vocal styles and timbres within flamenco is quite broad, certainly enough to accommodate peoples anatomical differences. Would you protest so far?

My take is that people get used to vibrating their vocal cords, shaping their tounge and forming vowels etc. in a specific/personal manner. This ingrained 'default mode' becomes what we think of as someone speaking or singing in their natural voice. Some people will have more difficulties than others to step out of this mode to hit something suitable for cante flamenco - and sound as natural while doing it! but it's not like people are condemned by their cranial cavities or vocal tracts to sound non-flamenco. If they sound off, they can learn not to. With patience and hard work of course. I would guess it could be likened to re-learning a guitar technique after having a long habit of doing it a certain way. Or learning to speak a second language without foreign accent. So I'm not saying it is easy, but would still hold that it is possible.

I base this observation on watching my friend practice vocal technique over the past few years. She has a very geeky anatomical/systematic approach to this stuff.. I don't think any flamencos in andalucia learn or teach vocal technique this particular way - it's very non-gitano!, but she makes progress with it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 26 2010 12:02:26

Stu

Posts: 2537
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: caracoles vid! (in reply to mrMagenta)

quote:

But for guitarists, the distinguishing feature is the part that goes to E-F (didn't you notice that???)

yeah i did notice that but just wondered if there was something else significant.

but thankyou very much for your detailed info again norman!!

quote:

I think the Guitarist is Javi Gomez

cool thanks!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 26 2010 17:40:39

NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007

RE: caracoles vid! (in reply to mrMagenta)

Interesting post mrMagenta, thanks for your thoughts. This is all about preference, so here's my opinion:

quote:

It would be difficult if everyone had to sing like el Zambo...

quote:

So I'm not saying it is easy, but would still hold that it is possible.

Yes, we have to admit the possibility because to deny it would be incoherent, but basically I think everyone has to sing like Luis Zambo (at least those who can't sing like Manuel Agujetas).

I agree with your analogy of learning to speak a foreign language without an accent. Pretty much impossible unless you grow up speaking it, in which case it wouldn't be a foreign language.

Seriously though, soft sweet voices can work in some styles. One of the great things about flamenco is that nobody is going to excel in every style. Even if someone has the right kind of voice and solid knowledge, the singers from the region where a style comes from are always going to have a special "flavor" that you can't find outside of the region.

quote:

I don't think any flamencos in andalucia learn or teach vocal technique this particular way - it's very non-gitano!

Of course I don't know exactly what your friend is doing, but I've been surprised many times by the tiny details that most gypsies put into crafting their art, and the fact that they're usually very much aware of these details. There are recordings of Juan Talega teaching cante to an American woman named La Marrurra. You can hear him telling her things like, "Yes, but you have to hold your tongue further back in your mouth." Talega and even apparent "savages" like Manuel Agujetas spent/spend countless hours going over details, matching letras and cantes, making small changes to letras to better fit the melody, etc.

Music, perhaps like nothing else, makes it obvious that there are different types of intelligence and that there are many unlikely looking geniuses in the world.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2010 9:16:09

Ricardo

Posts: 14837
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: caracoles vid! (in reply to mrMagenta)

quote:

I'm however sure most people have the anatomical resources to sing flamenco.
It would be difficult if everyone had to sing like el Zambo, but I would say the palette of vocal styles and timbres within flamenco is quite broad, certainly enough to accommodate peoples anatomical differences. Would you protest so far?

I will protest. As a norman says it is personal preference, but here is my humble opinion. I love singing. I think it is maybe the best feeling in the world to sing and express feeling through singing. Everyone CAN sing that has a voice. Most good instrumental musicians can sing in tune and rhythm. But not everyone has a SINGER'S voice. Hope that makes sense. As a guitarist, I can get a flamenco guitar, but I can't buy a singer's voice box. You have to be born with such an instrument.

It is no mystery that a huge percentage of pro guitarists sing, many genre's. In fact they sometimes sing better or know more then the singers they work with. But they know full well their personal "voice" is not the prefered sound, so they stick to guitar. I speak for myself, but observe this happening amongst tons of great guitarists.

Before even getting into what makes a FLAMENCO singers voice, I am still stuck at being born with a voice for being a singer... period. Some flamenco guitarists have more a flamenco voice then say a heavy metal singer. But the difference is do they really have a singer's voice? And how can one tell what that is? I don't know, but I know when I hear it. I think it is important for every singer of any style to record and listen to him or herself.... A LOT!

Some examples of what I am talking...the beatles were guitarists who sang, not singers to me. Rob halford is a singer...mariah cary is a singer. lady gaga is a piano player that sings. Hendrix, guitarist not a singer... etc. Jewel is a singer but plays guitar. Dylan a harmonica player....Paco sings but is a guitarist. Camaron is a singer that plays guitar a bit. Manzanita a singer that plays guitar WELL. etc.

So in the end, if you want to learn to sing flamenco that is cool. But if you want to BE the singer, that is something else, especially for flamenco. For pop or folk music it is not so important a distinction sometimes.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2010 19:55:27

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: caracoles vid! (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Jewel is a singer

I will protest this.

She's none of the above.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2010 20:06:00

mrMagenta

Posts: 942
Joined: Oct. 25 2006
From: Sweden

RE: caracoles vid! (in reply to NormanKliman)

quote:

There are recordings of Juan Talega teaching cante to an American woman named La Marrurra. You can hear him telling her things like, "Yes, but you have to hold your tongue further back in your mouth." Talega and even apparent "savages" like Manuel Agujetas spent/spend countless hours going over details, matching letras and cantes, making small changes to letras to better fit the melody, etc.

Cool! Of course the gitanos must have their ways of adressing the details too. It would be interesting to hear that Juan Talega recording!

Since I'm not singing myself (except when fooling around), I have no first hand experience but I still think what constitutes a sweet voice is more technical than physical. When Camaron spoke he sounded very sweet, when he sang, he did a lot of things technically to change the timber. If my friend makes an account here she can talk discuss these things way better. But I respect what you're saying.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2010 20:26:11

mrMagenta

Posts: 942
Joined: Oct. 25 2006
From: Sweden

RE: caracoles vid! (in reply to Ricardo)

I get your point. But I think a lot of people THINK they don't have a singers voice (including myself...), when in fact they have just fine voice-boxes, but like all things it can take thousands of hours of practice for this to become obvious. For some reason, we often think singing 'just happens'

I don't think there was anything physical that hindered Hendrix from becoming more of singer. He focused on the things he found meaningful, and made great music his way, but I think he could have become a Singer if that would have been his focus and priority.

But I won't push this angle further :-D

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2010 20:38:00

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: caracoles vid! (in reply to Stu)

The guitarist in the video looks like Antonio Banderas in Desperado. :.) ...hehe

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2010 21:09:47

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: caracoles vid! (in reply to Stu)

I dont believe in any "you have to be born with it" theories, be it compas, singing, etc... ie skillz that are LEARNED. Ok some people have diseases in their brains and can have incredible, for example mathematical, abilities. But thats a different case. I will admit it may be harder to become a good singer with a natural "bad voice", but people have shown the ability to invent technical workarounds for natural deficits. Like people with different hand size but being able to play the same thing on the guitar, equally well. Also i could imagine there might be many natural factors that determine a good guitar player, maybe this also applies to singing, so that if you have some deficits in one thing you can work on some thing else or so.

It may be also subjective whether one finds somebodys voice pleasing or not.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2010 21:12:25