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RE: Jose Luis Rodriguez - Fandango (in reply to Arash)
Yes, its some nice fandangos. J. L. Rodriguez is from Huelva and you can hear it in his fandangos. He has the right flow.
I´ve heard him live, and he´s a very good player with a tendency to play to many notes and passing chords, so sometimes I get a bit bored and find that its elevator music.
RE: Jose Luis Rodriguez - Fandango (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
quote:
and he´s a very good player with a tendency to play to many notes and passing chords, so sometimes I get a bit bored
Funny...the older I get and the more Flamenco music I listen to, the more I'm goin' back to my old view that Less is More..... Less is Good...
It's great technical and musical playing without a doubt, but I'm finding the picado-centic slant of stuff I hear these days just toe tapping throw away noodling.
I must admit, my biggest turn-off is the little arpegio leading up to every little picado run...or that little 6 note picado preamble leading to the main note..
Is it not possible to go for the note "straight", without the lead in?
You hear it EVERYWHERE these days...on every album of practically every player...
It annoys me as much as the "woodpecker" annoys Ricardo...
In fact these days I find it hard to tell players apart (except for some), like some kind of Flamenco Entropy, where everything melds and merges into the same thing.
Personally, I think it comes from everyone trying to get technically as good as the other person....so no real original ideas.
Turn the handle of the sausage machine and produce yet another super-duper guitar clone.
I often wonder when is the next genuine "new thing" gonna happen, instead of all these super-player soundalikes?
Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
RE: Jose Luis Rodriguez - Fandango (in reply to Ron.M)
hmm,yeah i know where you are coming from (to a certain extent).
i don't like technique / picado masturbation, without any feeling or without any distinctive characteristic of the player either.
but i think you are a bit unfair to this guy.
i listed to most of his other stuff and i think he actually has his own distinctive style and sound. he is playing very emotional and soulful
another thing is that nowadays it is really difficult to be completely shocking new and absolutely unique in your style , your sound , your way of playing or whatever.
i mean , not only almost each and every falseta and composition is somehow existing (in an altered way) in another composition of someone else somewhere, also all kind of styles of playing are almost covered already by someone else.
so nowadays, you always sound like someone else somehow.
and regarding "less is more, less is better", well my answer would be: sometimes yes (for instance jerez style, like diego del morao, etc.), but sometimes it can be as boring (or even much more boring) as the player with "too many notes".
sometimes this "less is more" is just an excuse for not beeing able to play anything difficult (as a player) or a justification for the style which one prefers (as a listener). i am not saying that this is your tendecy Ron, because i know that its not the case and that you also appreciate some of the modern stuff (if it moves you somehow) and if that modern stuff is played the way you like it.
but if i would hear this statement in the oldschoolforo, then i would just respond with something like: "yeah, play your 3 chords with your crappy rasgueado and feel like an oldschool maestro if it makes you happy and let the others be happy with what they prefer"
but here in this foro, i would say give this guy a chance, listen to some of his other stuff, sometimes after listening more than once, one starts to appreciate things and discover things which one missed the first time.
but of course, again, there is no accounting for taste. finally its all about taste.
RE: Jose Luis Rodriguez - Fandango (in reply to Ron.M)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ron.M Personally, I think it comes from everyone trying to get technically as good as the other person....so no real original ideas.
I didnt get the transition. Regarding picado, its not a modern thing. Listen to old Paco, or Cepero. They could be more excessive in the 70s than some modern composition which sometimes only use 1 scale/run per piece. Difference is today more people are capable of doing good picado, hence they make use of it. Same thing with more versatile strumming patterns. The playing just reflects the era the players are living in. It is normal that players sound alike to you, we all get knowledgeable in things we like, not in things we dont like so much. If somebody asked me about the difference between nu, black and death metal i would be like this "????".
This Rodriguez guy is definitely one of the more clean tone, technical players, but hes not lacking musicality for me (although i prefer other style and players). But im totally biased when it comes to modern, so, dont trust me!
Posts: 14880
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Jose Luis Rodriguez - Fandango (in reply to XXX)
quote:
Regarding picado, its not a modern thing. Listen to old Paco, or Cepero. They could be more excessive in the 70s than some modern composition which sometimes only use 1 scale/run per piece. Difference is today more people are capable of doing good picado,
yeah, like sabicas was like a picado fest when he was not jacking licks of montoya. So actually, nowadays there is more emphasis on synchopated themes and weird sounding chords and out of norm key passages, then picados by themselves I would say. The technique nowadays is to actually do fast scales in tempo, where as Sabicas and co. would do fast runs at whatever tempo the hell they wanted. So take that how you want, but I think it is harder to do fast runs as a rhythmic statement rather then to just shoot em off at a comfy flashy speed relative to the rest of the piece.
So now you think I am ragging on old school, but my real point is both are cool concepts musically, just different. It is not about "oh modern guys do this so they must be more skilled", I dont' mean that. In baile we need to change tempo all the time, it is not easy to do. And very few can imitate what sabicas was doing with his guitar solos. I agree if modern flamenco is not to your taste, you can write it off as "technical" or whatever you want as a negative, but it is just a generalization. Without a specific example to discuss (say the fangango above specific passages), it does not mean much, it is just a show of dislike. I feel the guy in the first post is just doing the paco style of fandangos, it is not exemplary nor anything wrong or boring about it. I would say just study the PDL fandangos if you like this style. Vicente and Manolo Sanlucar did somethings very unique I would say compared with this version.
Either way, any you guys bored with this playing, maybe you should explore cante. In terms of technique, well, same deal you need a technique of scales to sing good fandangos. Here we have a decent guitarist, and regardless if we had the guy in the first post playing his way (PDL style IMO) to accompany or even a much more old school style, neither would detract from the singing which is very advanced, powerful, and difficult to copy. Try to sing the scales of the melody this guy is singing exact (and still varying letra to letra slightly) and you won't get bored anytime soon.
I think my point is no need to knock a guitarist cuz he plays fast scales...it is kind of not so important in the big picture.
RE: Jose Luis Rodriguez - Fandango (in reply to Ricardo)
Well, as usual, I'm only simply trying to stimulate some intelligent discussion here by taking a slightly controversial position...(otherwise known as "stirring it" )
The guy certainly is an ace guitarist and has great tone and rhythm etc. That's for sure.
What I was meaning by picado is not the isolated fast picado runs, but the tendency now for the melody to be carried by picado on the top strings and that terribly annoying habit everyone seems to have of playing that little preamble to every salient note in the melody...so, like if you want an E then you don't just play E, but must lead into it with E,F,G,F,E,D,E or something.
And the same with the rest of the main notes in the melody.
Everyone seems to do it these days without even thinking, as you hear it everywhere. (Alegrias is a real favourite for this).
It really bugs me!
Maybe I've just become over sensitised to it?
Maybe I just need a break or something, 'cos everything is beginning to sound the same with the perfect recording made with the perfect guitar using perfect technique, perfect tone and perfect rhythm....which logically is GOOD..so who can fault or criticise that?
But honestly, to my ear the actual music is all beginning to sound the same.
Horror of horrors...I can imagine in say 20 years time, synthesisers will be so advanced that they will be able to recreate guitar sound perfectly, so that players can just program in their compositions and the result will be musical perfection and there will be no need at all for fingers on strings.
Just my usual rambling thoughts, so don't anybody get too upset here!
RE: Jose Luis Rodriguez - Fandango (in reply to Ron.M)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ron.M
quote:
and he´s a very good player with a tendency to play to many notes and passing chords, so sometimes I get a bit bored
Funny...the older I get and the more Flamenco music I listen to, the more I'm goin' back to my old view that Less is More..... Less is Good...
It's great technical and musical playing without a doubt, but I'm finding the picado-centic slant of stuff I hear these days just toe tapping throw away noodling.
I must admit, my biggest turn-off is the little arpegio leading up to every little picado run...or that little 6 note picado preamble leading to the main note..
Is it not possible to go for the note "straight", without the lead in?
You hear it EVERYWHERE these days...on every album of practically every player...
It annoys me as much as the "woodpecker" annoys Ricardo...
In fact these days I find it hard to tell players apart (except for some), like some kind of Flamenco Entropy, where everything melds and merges into the same thing.
Personally, I think it comes from everyone trying to get technically as good as the other person....so no real original ideas.
Turn the handle of the sausage machine and produce yet another super-duper guitar clone.
I often wonder when is the next genuine "new thing" gonna happen, instead of all these super-player soundalikes?
cheers,
Ron
Ron your hopelessly old fashion. Those are some of the things that make the old style boring to me.
RE: Jose Luis Rodriguez - Fandango (in reply to Ron.M)
Maybe upload an example of what you mean. I for one have no idea what you are referring to. Might be even a true observation you did there, but without letting others know what it is, it has no meaning.
RE: Jose Luis Rodriguez - Fandango (in reply to XXX)
quote:
I for one have no idea what you are referring to. Might be even a true observation you did there, but without letting others know what it is, it has no meaning.
See!
It's so ingrained that you can't even tell when you're doing it!
You forgot 0:59 and 1:02 probably more i stopped there. Ok so you dont like 16th notes well these are just ornaments to make it more alive, rhythmically. You can make a whole piece in 8ths -> boring or a whole piece in 16ths -> boring, or mix them like here -> better. This is common practice and not exclusively to modern i would guess.
Posts: 14880
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Jose Luis Rodriguez - Fandango (in reply to Ron.M)
quote:
Too many ornaments.
Think Simple.
Get rid of the Clutter.
Less is Good.
In those cases of ornamentation, the guitar is doing like the cante with scales. That is why I gave that example above, tons of scale ornaments that eventually lead to an important note that make it have the fandango form. Sorry I forgot to give an example of a "less cluttered" example.
So here is Gordito de Triana who sings a fangangos that is noticeably lacking any fancy ornamentation as Platero above. So applying your critic of guitar playing to cante, would you say that THIS is much better for you interms of how you might like a fangango to be sung?
For me, I think the cool thing about flamenco it IS all the same if you really break it down, but there is still room for both extremes, the simple direct way, and the highly technical ornate way...both have beauty and purpose in the genre as a whole, and it is fun discovering more and more varieties. Of course if Fandango de Gloria were the ONLY type of fandango ever sung nowadays, then that would be akin to all the copy cats of Paco de Lucia's guitar style and techniques. Luckily that is not that case and we do have SOME variety, but I don't see a need to knock any player or singer that is good and knowledgable, regardless if they are copying someone.
Oh, one more fandango with "too many notes", at least in the part that takes you from C to F major, he really milks that scale for all it's worth, but the rest is more direct. But man for me it is all about that part which stands out because it is so ornate compared to the rest...
Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
RE: Jose Luis Rodriguez - Fandango (in reply to Ron.M)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ron.M
Horror of horrors...I can imagine in say 20 years time, synthesisers will be so advanced that they will be able to recreate guitar sound perfectly, so that players can just program in their compositions and the result will be musical perfection and there will be no need at all for fingers on strings.
actually you don't need to wait 20 years. i heard some synths (samplers) with guitar sounds which was 100% like a real guitar.
but i doubt that they can reproduce the "aire" of flamenco guitar with synths even in 100 years , so no worries, they can just do it with the classical guitar sound
seriously, i think i understand what bugs you. but i think it doesn't have anything to do with picado, etc. i think its some general "problem" which you have with all the recent recordings and CDs. i remember that few months ago i had a phase, where i had some kind of similar feelings and thoughts. i had some unrealistic expectations from the CDs which i had and which i bought, which were not fulfilled. i wanted to be be totally moved and wanted to have goosebumps during the whole CD (like the early and initial feelings at the time my flamenco path started, with some paco de lucia pieces, etc.). so, i was like "ok, nice, not bad, but where is the revolutionary part in the CD?". i was really expecting too much from the guitarists. i made a break and didn't listen to anything for few days, then later, i "cooled down" and focused more on details and the excitement was back again and my overcritical bitchy phase was over.
well, your case may be much more complex and your phase may take longer
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
Try to sing the scales of the melody this guy is singing exact
RE: Jose Luis Rodriguez - Fandango (in reply to Ron.M)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ron.M Less is Good.
Umm, yeah... less is good, not bad. But more is better But hey from all modern haters you are the one with the most fun factor!
quote:
Does that sound like knocking him?
I will always keep you in good memory as the inventor of the term "guitar diarrhea" Anyways, i didnt get the Ricardo videos above either. Sounded like normal playing to me.
Posts: 528
Joined: Nov. 10 2008
From: Helsinki, Finland
RE: Jose Luis Rodriguez - Fandango (in reply to Arash)
quote:
Umm, yeah... less is good, not bad. But more is better
Im sure you like yngwie malmsteen. Hes super fast and can insert thousand notes to four beats, thats 3000 notes to twelve
But really, Imho its not about more or less notes, its all about the style---how the notes are presented. Fast or slow, ornamented or not, if theres no magic and presence, then it all just meaningless fluff. Usually the ignorant public likes the fast, flashy, circus stuff more impressing.
RE: Jose Luis Rodriguez - Fandango (in reply to Ricardo)
OK Ricardo,
I realize now that you are pointing out that being flowery or straightforward in singing is just personal style and the same applies to guitarists.
BTW, I also accept that 6 note lead in to a salient note is not new either and there are plently examples in oldschool playing.
However what I am referring to is the CONSTANT use of THIS "ornament", (sometimes every few seconds) amongst solo players these days, no matter what palo they are playing.
I sometimes wonder if they realize they are doing it and are just maybe doing it as a nervous response to some kind of "trigger itch" in their fingers, resulting from an ability to play very fast picado after practicing endless scales for years and years.
I find the CONSTANT use of this "ornament" annoying in the same way as I find some speakers irritating, who begin every sentence with something like "Listen up, man"...and end every sentence with "Y'know whatta mean, man".
You are pointing out that what these guitarists are doing is within the rules of Flamenco and is therefore good.
I just don't agree that it's "good".
Funnily enough in a different context, (if you follow the foreign news) British Politicians who have come under considerable public criticism in the past months for over claiming expenses etc, have been using the same argument that "they have done nothing wrong" and whatever they did was "within the rules", even though the public do not perceive it as being "good".
RE: Jose Luis Rodriguez - Fandango (in reply to Arash)
Ron, in the end, what is being discussed is your personal taste and nothing else.
As you write yourself, there´s nothing wrong with this kind of ornamentation. Like it or not. In many kinds of etnical music (and flamenco is etnical music to me) played on stringed instruments, you find that its filled with this kind of ornamentation. Listen to Arabic Oud music or Turkish saz music. They ornament almost every single note.
What I sometimes (read sometimes) find annoying in flamenco solo guitar (modern and older) is the lack of message ot theme. It often ends up being just a million of notes going around a few chords in the traditional playing, and the same thing plus some passing chords (sometimes called jazzy) in the case of the more modern players. Both cases I find boring and empty. If you to this add a super polished clean production, a cajon, some lelelele singers and maybe a flute, then I find it to be elevator or supermarket music with absolutely no appeal.
Those of us feeling like that are very lucky, because flamenco has cante. where you have an enourmous amount of music to study, play and enjoy which is full of apeal and electricity.
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