Jon's Baile diary

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Jon's Baile diary

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Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

Jon's Baile diary

The dance classes I accompany continue to be really enjoyable and very valuable to me. A few observation on things so far:

Volume: Once 20 people or so start clapping and stamping on a sprung stage things get noisy! At the moment I am accompanying unamplified, which means I have to play very hard. My Sanchis responds well, but my nails, particularly my thumb, is starting to suffer. Consequently I am getting thru a fair bit of nail protector.

I am toying with the idea of taking some of my gig gear down (A/E guitar, amps etc) but I quite like the rawness of all this - there's something cool and flamenco about just getting my guitar out of its case and getting on with it, as opposed to the fuss I usually have to go through setting up my gear when I am on stage. Having said that, at the moment it would be a waste of time doing falsetas as they would get drowned out, and a couple of times Mercedes has asked me to throw in a few.

Palos: So far I have played por Tangos, Rumba and Farruca and a little Tientos. Notice a pattern? Yep, she (the instructor) is sticking to the palos in 4/4. This is probably a good thing for me to get into the swing of things, I reckon accompanying por Alegria would be a different ball game.

Communication: Mercedes speaks good English, but knows nothing about guitar playing, which I guess is typical of dancers? This can make things interesting when she tries to explain what she wants..

For the first few weeks I have just been playing basic compas to accompany basic steps the dancers are learning, but now she wants to start putting things together in more choreographed routines. I think could use some kind of reference material here - a baile instruction video maybe - which goes through the basic terminology (desplante, cortes etc) along with the visual cues that the guitarist needs to pick up in order to accompany effectively. Mercedes tries her best to explain these things to me, but she is after all teaching a beginners dance class, and has limited time to spend with me. If anyone knows a good source on accompanying baile, please say!

Jon

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 15 2004 8:58:00

Skai

Posts: 317
Joined: Sep. 12 2004

RE: Jon's Baile diary (in reply to Jon Boyes)

You make me jealous, that's all I have to say..

Skai

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 15 2004 9:23:48

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: Jon's Baile diary (in reply to Jon Boyes)

Don't mic up Jon.

If you do, they will come to expect it, they won't listen properly, you'll probably have problems with all those feet thumping through your system and you'll miss a super oportunity to get a great work out to further developing your RH technique.

Best to keep it raw and let them appreciate you're not a CD.

Merc's thing about choreography is just normal. Thing is that there's no great magic. Her feet just play with Compas the same way that our resguagos do. If you listen to her you'll find that you'll be able to either fit exactly or pull beats out in contra. You just have to learn things like where she wants you to stop or play quiet and loud. Keep falsetas simple.

Jim.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 15 2004 13:16:49

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: Jon's Baile diary (in reply to Jim Opfer)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim Opfer
Best to keep it raw and let them appreciate you're not a CD.

Trouble is before I came along they were using CDs, through a hi-fi with big speakers, so they were used to plenty of volume. Point taken about the technique workout.

quote:

You just have to learn things like where she wants you to stop or play quiet and loud.

Yes, but I could use some kind of reference, if only to do some studying in my own time.

Like for example last week she wanted some farruca and asked me if I could do six bars with a 'cortes' to finish. Now I'm not entirely sure what she meant by cortes, because she can't explain it in guitar terms, but from the ta-dah-dah type noises she made, and the way she referred to something else I played (a nice tangos variation from the Understanding flamenco CD), I'm guessing this just means a clearly defined ending with a fluorish ??

Cheers

Jon

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 15 2004 13:44:02

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Jon's Baile diary (in reply to Jon Boyes)

Jon,
be careful about trying to play too loud, too soon. It's pretty easy to hurt those manitas if they're not ready for it...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 15 2004 16:58:57

Mark2

Posts: 1877
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Jon's Baile diary (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Bring a small amp! Amps usually ring very well in those dance studios and it will save your hands and allow you to do falsetas and play with dynamics. I can't imagine trying to do otherwise. With all those feet, you need an amp to be heard. They also need to hear you if they are going to learn to dance with the guitar. Now, you should be leading them. Later, they will hopefully lead you. That could take quite a while.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 15 2004 17:20:38

Mark2

Posts: 1877
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Jon's Baile diary (in reply to Jon Boyes)

A corte is a cut or stop. So if they ask for a corte on a specific step, you stop there. You may need to continue playing again immediatley depending on what happens next. A friend of mine told me that you need a thousand little chops to accompany dance. He was right, and you will learn them one at a time. There are a dozen or more just for alegria. Things you can't learn from playing or listening to solos. I wish I had had a DVD when I was starting, but there were none. You have to find your way. An option would be to sit in on dance classes with a guitarist with more experience. Something that bridged a lot of gaps for me, was after a year or so, I started playing for the teacher in private rehearsals. Students will rarely get through a whole dance, and will not be able to do so at speed. It was a surprise for me the first time I played for a dancer going full speed. She had at least twice the speed of the students. Some of my techniques needed to be changed in order to go that fast. I think from what you wrote you did understand her request for those cortes. Try to find a record with a quadro-there are a few out there, Paco Pena has one.
And go see quadros whenever possible. It could take a few years to cover all the palos and see a few different soleas, bulerias, etc, to recognize what the common elements are. Finally, study the steps themselves. Memorize the rythmic patterns, and tailor your playing to them. Try taping a class or two. After a time you will start to hear tradtional steps and know immediatley how to play for them. You will know how they fit in the compas. Have fun and enjoy the journey.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 15 2004 17:41:42

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: Jon's Baile diary (in reply to Mark2)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark2
A corte is a cut or stop. So if they ask for a corte on a specific step, you stop there. <snip>Have fun and enjoy the journey.

Thanks for that slice of wisdom, Mark, much appreciated. Yes, a video of those thousand little chops needed for baile would be great

Hanging out with a more experienced accompanist is a non starter round these parts - I practically got mobbed after the last class by people wanting lessons from me!

I see from another forum that Solo Compas have now brought out a baile DVD, so I may try that.

what's a quadro?

Jon

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 15 2004 19:50:45

musicalgrant

Posts: 188
Joined: Oct. 21 2004

RE: Jon's Baile diary (in reply to Jon Boyes)

Hi Jon

Sounds great working with the dancers, I too had the same problem with them LOL, they seemed to know all these patterns but not a clue as to what the guitar does...

I played a series of Sevillanas for a dancer and we fitted perfectly, this might of been because she had done the dancing workshops at Dartington college in collaboration with Jaun, and the sevillanas were in his book.

I had a German flamenco teacher who worked with me with a dancer once and it was very interesting how all the different sections fit in, he kept it simple and followed whatever she did, with compas and strumming patterns, which are not too difficult for someone of your ability.

My experience of playing for dancers is very limited, but if I can be so bold as to make a suggestion? It might be of use to you.

Juan martin used to come to Dartington college every summer and do summer schools,
in these sessions which are full time for a week, he works one on one with you, and also gets you into playing for the flamenco dancing summer school, and if you'r lucky with a singer from spain too

and if you are talented, like you are, you can apply for bursaries at dartington which usually involves sending in a tape of your playing and a bit about you sort of thing. And then the whole week is paid for you

I met lots of flamenco's there and learnt a lot about playing for dancers, but go there if you can as you will learn more.
And it will be free for you

I know everyone slags him off, but he knows his stuff when it comes to the traditional flamenco.

I think I will try and go this year, I miss a whole week of playing flamenco, and seeing free concerts too, oh boy, how I have missed it. Work and bills have stopped me going for a few years now.

Maybe next year, Ill go.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 15 2004 21:10:38

Escribano

Posts: 6417
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Jon's Baile diary (in reply to Jon Boyes)

quote:

what's a quadro?

I think it means "a group", like "a band"

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 15 2004 22:25:07

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: Jon's Baile diary (in reply to musicalgrant)

quote:

ORIGINAL: musicalgrant

Hi Jon

Sounds great working with the dancers, I too had the same problem with them LOL, they seemed to know all these patterns but not a clue as to what the guitar does...

Hi Grant - muchas gracias for this post, I have PM'ed you.

Jon

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 16 2004 8:16:53

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Jon's Baile diary (in reply to Escribano)

Jon,
It's "cuadro" which means picture, ie "picture flamenco", which is performed on a stage with the dancers in colorful dresses etc.
So it's a show as opposed to informal flamenco in a bar or juerga.
That's my understanding of it anyway!

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 16 2004 8:21:19

Escribano

Posts: 6417
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Jon's Baile diary (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

It's "cuadro" which means picture

Yeah, I missed the spelling but my dictionary also has "team" from sport, "scene" from the theatre and, of course, "square"

I think Estela told me it was literally "square" as there are often four performers (at the corners) but I may be suffering from false memory. Perhaps Kate can help?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 16 2004 8:59:21

Kate

Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía

RE: Jon's Baile diary (in reply to Escribano)

A 'cuadro is described in my flamenco glossary as simply a flamenco show with singer, dancer guitarrist. In the dictionary there are many varying definitions such as board, as in commitee, a painting , a chart, a scene, a manifestation, a panel. And 'ser de otro cuadro' means to be gay.

Cuadrado means square.

Kate

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 16 2004 14:25:21