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What makes a solo?
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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 RE: What makes a solo? (in reply to Jim Opfer)
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Vicente doesn't call his recent albums "flamenco" but "fusion." I think this gives a good hint as just how different he is from the "juergao" style of composing (good reference, Ron). There is song, and there is jam. Song usually has analagous structural units to verse, chorus, maybe subchorus, tags, hooks, etc; while jam has no recurring or thematic material. Vicente plays songs, as he has hooks and definiable structure. Also, he usually has hummable melodies, very important for memorable hooks.
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Date Oct. 17 2004 21:25:59
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Jon Boyes
Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
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RE: What makes a solo? (in reply to Jim Opfer)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jim Opfer
I guess this takes VA away from traditional flamenco playing and just wondered what you thought about this observation?
Some argue that even solo flamenco guitar is not a viable expression of flamenco, though I think thats a bit like arguing that the world is flat.
IMO, once you dismantle the compas completely, then it is no longer flamenco, no matter how famous the guitarist. Doesn't mean to say its not good of course, and Vicente is a beautiful player.
I only have one Vicente album (the first one), and on that you can certainly identify familiar structures. I was playing around with Tio Arango a few weeks back, and the first thing I did was sit down and mark out on the music: "Introduction, rasgueado compas 1, falseta one, ras no2, falseta 2,.." etc. Certainly as far as that piece goes, the typical structure is all there, although as we know he plays loose with the compas timing - his 12 beat cycle is far from metronomic.
I must say that after working through this and looking at some of his other pieces I came to the conclusion that Vicente comes up with some of the nicest chords in the business. Huge great rolling things with lots of open strings and ambiguous harmony. That opening chord on Tio Arango is a good example - its a real beauty.
..er back to your question, Jim, I think I'm saying 'yes'. 
Jon
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Date Oct. 18 2004 9:47:55
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Jamey
Posts: 187
Joined: Jul. 7 2004
From: Winnipeg, Canada
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RE: What makes a solo? (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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quote:
Jamey, no, I hear you, man. Actually, I enjoy the "cinematic" feel of some of his work and is something I have wanted to do for awhile now. The orchestra, of course, helps to give his pieces that depth. His latest album even has a cohesive feel to it, I think.
True. Listen to his theme from "Habla con Ella" where El Pele chimes in at the end. I really enjoy that piece. Orchestra and all. Amigo just seems to have this innate sense of balance with his music. If we forget flamenco for second and just listen to his music as a musical arrangement and don't concern ourselves with tradition, you realize he has this ability to add "just enough" without overpowering or overshadowing the overall composition. There is another guitarist from Jerez, Juan Diego that has a few pieces that do this but not with the same consistency ("Rondeñas Del Agüelo" for example). Amigo's "Sierra del Agua" is another one like this, almost dreamlike.
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Date Oct. 18 2004 14:27:05
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: What makes a solo? (in reply to Jon Boyes)
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quote:
IMO, once you dismantle the compas completely, then it is no longer flamenco, no matter how famous the guitarist
I don't think it even stops at that Jon.
I mean, I heard a beautiful Samba by Vincente Amigo this morning.
Now, before everybody jumps on me (LOL!)....
If someone plays Samba chords, Samba phrasing, to a Samba rhythm, is it Samba?
Or is it Flamenco, because it's played by a top Flamenco guitarist?
The music is absolutely beautiful, but I'd have to hesitate in calling it Flamenco.
I could play...say "Scotland the Brave", dead on Bulerias compás....
But is that Flamenco, just because the compás is there?
Or because I fit a rasgueado in?
Or is a "folk" music more complex than that?
I think it is.
Scottish folk music is fairly unadventurous musically, so a while ago some Scottish Folk musicians started using Traditional Irish instruments along with Tradititional Irish chords, phrasing and general "feel".
The result?
Secondhand Irish music! LOL!
I think that back in the 70's, Paco de Lucía developed Flamenco guitar both in solo and accompaniment forms that came from within his own culture and imagination.
I think that's what makes him unique in his place in the development of Flamenco guitar and gives him the respect of his contemporaries IMO.
cheers
Ron
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Date Oct. 18 2004 20:06:14
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: What makes a solo? (in reply to Ron.M)
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It's a waste of time labeling these kind of things. You heard the story about the Andalucians whispering behind Sabicas' back, saying that he wasn't a real flamenco as he was not from Southern Spain.
Actually, a funny story: On Saturday, I had a gig which was a "jump band" kind of thing. I played a 3 hour gig with a guitarist and a percussionist with whom I had never even rehearsed before! The guitarist sent me some charts (chords, melody, and structure) of some songs and his CD. We played the gig and even did about six songs that I have never even looked at before... it was kind of fun, the uncertainty of not knowing when you are going to crash and burn!
He told me a story about a gig he played... he had crafted a "Spanishy" version of "LIght my Fire" by the Doors, and while he was playing, felt a presence behind him. The manager, it turned out, leaned very close, and softly but authoritatively said, "We'll have no more Doors songs here from now on." The guitarist was pretty offended the manager had decided to curtail his artistic choices with such cheek, and said to me, "Well, I don't know what his problem was, did he think I was going to launch into a Doors set? And besides, Jose Feliciano played "Light My Fire" and he's a flamenco guitarist, isn't he?" In the face of his indignation I just shrugged... you know.
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Date Oct. 18 2004 22:36:21
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gerundino63
Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands
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RE: What makes a solo? (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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Hi All!
I have a rather recent interview with Amigo, it is in duch, so I try to tanslate some relevant things here.:
"I am busy right now with a record, and I have a lot of ideas, I do not know wich form it will be, more or less tradittional, but in any case things that are very flamenco. Allways will the things on my records be very flamenco, becäuse I am a flamenco guitarist.And I have a lot of respect for the tradition."
Other quote:
"One thing you must not forget, is, all the people that are so traditionalistic, forget that I am even more traditionalistic than them. Every flamencoguitarist that lives and knows the flamenco, is more traditionalistic than every critici. I know for sure"
Other Quote:
(He is talking now about his new album)
"I have made a solea, that lies in the length of the one in Cuidad de las Idea, i would like to say to the flamenco critics: If the solea on that record is not flamenco, what do they mean than with flamenco?"
Hope you understand my english, if you don't understand it good enough, ask me, I will try to translate it in a better way.
Peter
P.S. The whole interview came from: Tablao flamenco no 23
A duch flamenco magazin.
_____________________________
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Date Oct. 19 2004 11:15:04
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: What makes a solo? (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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Mike,
I read a thing on the Internet a while ago.
It was from a little interview that Gerardo Nuñez gave, (I think after receiving an award for something or other.)
In it he said something like...
"If folk want to sit on their arses in Jerez playing Moraito stuff, then good luck to them, but it ain't for me".
(Now a lot of folk took that as an attack on Moraito, but I'm sure that sensible folk can see where the guy is coming from here and there was no critisizm intended whatsoever.)
Anyway, I had the opportunity of watching him play the same week on Ondajerez TV and though I was blown away by his technique and virtuosity, I wasn't that enamoured by his material.
Having a look through Flamenco-World later that week, I came across some other stuff he had done and to my amazement, it was amongst the best Flamenco accompaniment I've ever heard.
I thought to myself....
"Well, well ...You can take the boy out of Jerez, but you can't take Jerez out of the boy".
Herein lies the danger IMO of foreigners listening, liking, and choosing to play stuff by folk like Nuñez and Amigo...yeah and even Paco now.
If you are new to Flamenco, and just like the tunes, then my advice would be just get the tabs and follow it note by note, or work it out by ear like that Russian fellah did.
Even if you fall out of compás, and don't really have a clue what you are playing, then what the hell...most folk won't realize anyway!
Nobody's listening to that amongst friends or family or even a general Public audience outside Andalucia.
And you'll still get top marks for your picado and rasgueado!
But if you want to understand more about Flamenco, just for you, yourself...... then it's definitely a long haul!
cheers
Ron
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Date Oct. 19 2004 21:07:20
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Mark2
Posts: 1877
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
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RE: What makes a solo? (in reply to Jim Opfer)
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quote:
Nearly every player I can think of seem to compose their solos as a sequence of falsetas arranged together around rasgueado passages, useually very complex but non the less, tied together as a string of individual bits.
Vicenta Amigo however, stands out as being different in that his music is arranged from start to end. It seems hard to borrow a bit of VA to incorporate into your own playing as somehow, it jumps out as being different and is instantly recognisable.
Paco's more recent compositions are a bit like this but less so.
I guess this takes VA away from traditional flamenco playing and just wondered what you thought about this observation?
Jim.
It's funny, that's exactly what people said about PdL-that his solos were "composed" as whole pieces of music instead of falsetas bolted together, and I think they were-especially during and after "Fuente". What about Mario's Impetu? Finally , I don't see a problem with taking a few of vicente's falsetas and sticking them in a buleria, a solea, a tango , etc. I think it may "jump out" to you because your so used to hearing the pieces as a whole. I have often heard a player throw in a PdL falseta, and it also stood out to me, but because I was familiar with it, not because it was not appropriate.
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Date Oct. 20 2004 16:32:04
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: What makes a solo? (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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Nobody's won anything Mike, but I'm glad that you maybe now differentiate between "experimental virtuoso Flamenco Guitar" and "Flamenco Guitar".
Remember these virtuoso guys who do their own thing, can in an instant, accompany the most challenging singers and dancers with no problem at all.
But they got fed up with that, for their own reasons, and moved on.
If you ever learn a Vincente Amigo or Gerardo Nuñez solo piece it will add practically zero to your understanding of Flamenco as a whole.
These kind of compositions are impossible to somehow "reverse engineer" back to the fundamentals IMO.
They will just be good flashy pieces as in the Classical repertoire.
I mean by that, they will never give you the insight of the underlying structure of that particular toque, so that one day you can maybe express yourself in that medium in your own personal way.
They will always just be virtuoso pieces, if you see what I mean.
Meanwhile these guys couldn't care less, 'cos they already know the most complex Flamenco forwards and backwards with no trouble at all.
Great to listen to, but be wary of copying.
cheers
Ron
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Date Oct. 20 2004 20:46:35
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Jim Opfer
Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.
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RE: What makes a solo? (in reply to Mark2)
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quote:
I don't see a problem with taking a few of vicente's falsetas and sticking them in a buleria, a solea, a tango , etc. I think it may "jump out" to you because your so used to hearing the pieces as a whole. I have often heard a player throw in a PdL falseta, and it also stood out to me, but because I was familiar with it, not because it was not appropriate
Hi Mark2,
The thing is (well to my ear and I recognise what you are saying about familiarity) Vicente Amigo seems to have a musical scale (not litteral) a type of mode that's different to all others.
If you pick out a 1 or 2 min snip from any of his music and try to slip it into something you happen to be playing, like placing a bit of his 'Cordoba' into your Solea, then right away it jars. It's as if his music has to flow his way. Yet, it's a fact that these recordings are artificial in that they are just frozen in time on the CD, when he plays live, he playes differences but again in his own scale or mode.
Very strange and sheer genius.
Jim.
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Date Oct. 20 2004 21:49:08
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Mark2
Posts: 1877
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
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RE: What makes a solo? (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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quote:
I would never play a Vicente Amigo falseta for a singer or a dancer, it just wouldn;'t sound right to me. To me, the jazzy chords and cool, lush arpeggios are beautiful but sound out of place with stomping and rajo. That's just me and what I personally enjoy. I'm officially old fasioned now...Ron has won!
But vicente does. If you listen to the records on which he plays for singers, you'll hear some of the same falsetas he plays on his records, and of course , they work fine, lush chords and all. Of course, if it's just not your bag, that's fine. It depends on the singer too, though. I've had a singer from spain, who also plays guitar, ask for Cmaj 7 in the cambio of solea por arriba, for example. there are dancers and singers out there who want modern sounds, and those that don't. One dancer i play for on oaccasion loves modern sounds and loves to be surprised. Others want something more traditional. I think it should be up to the guitarist, but that's part of why I don't spend much time playing for singers and dancers!
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Date Oct. 20 2004 22:30:08
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