Compas Structures

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Compas Structures

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Skai

Posts: 317
Joined: Sep. 12 2004

Compas Structures

I'm having real problems understanding compas..

For example, if bulerias, peteneras and guajiras have the same structure, why don't they sound similar apart from being different keys? But when listening to recordings, the differences are rather obvious. So what makes them different?

Any tips on how to go about learning compas? eg. by palmas, learning pieces of different palos..

Thanks everyone..
Skai

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 30 2004 13:01:16

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Compas Structures (in reply to Skai)

Skai,
may I suggest that you seek a local teacher? These things are very easily answered when you are sitting in a room with someone. Over the medium of the internet, they are very difficult to explain.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 30 2004 15:58:13

Escribano

Posts: 6418
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Compas Structures (in reply to Skai)

quote:

Any tips on how to go about learning compas

Finding a teacher can be difficult, expensive and sometimes worse than nothing.
Try and master one palo at a time, I find it easier to recognise and approach the compas when I know it backwards rather then trying to deal with all of them. My top 3, in order, are Soleares, Tangos and Buleares. I try to get away from counting as soon as I can.
Try and get to Spain for a week or two.
Listen to flamenco all the time.
RonM's "Flamenco Master" metronome will help you.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 30 2004 16:08:54

rickm

Posts: 446
Joined: Jan. 23 2004

RE: Compas Structures (in reply to Skai)

do you have a link for the flamenco metronome? I think this is what I was looking for earlier. thaks

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 30 2004 16:32:32

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Compas Structures (in reply to Skai)

quote:

I'm having real problems understanding compas..

Everybody has, Skai.
You must study first the underlying theory of what is taught as the 12 beat cycles of Soleares, Alegrias, Bulerias, Siguiriyas etc.
These are the most "foreign" ones to our ears.
So long as you can count to 12 then you should be able to get a grasp of this quite quickly.
Thereafter there is the understanding and knowing how to work with the various cycles that is very much more difficult.
It's very different, for instance, than getting the grasp of say, Reggae rhythm, which is a bit weird at first, but once you catch it, it's like riding a bike.
Over the past thirty years or so, folk have explored the various underlying sub rhythms of these already complex rhythms in order to refresh the sound.
A lot of this has been taken up and is now a de facto part of everyday Flamenco.
Flamencos have a lot of fun playing around with the rhythm and still being dead on compás.
I honestly don't think there is any fast track to this other than listening to Flamenco music a lot and preferably playing with Singers and Dancers if you can.
It's definitely a journey!
And a very enjoyable, if sometimes frustrating one!
I would highly recommend the "Understanding Flamenco" CD available on various sites including Flamenco-World.com

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 30 2004 20:19:34

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: Compas Structures (in reply to Skai)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Skai
I'm having real problems understanding compas..

For example, if bulerias, peteneras and guajiras have the same structure, why don't they sound similar apart from being different keys?

Well you've given one reason - key/mode (although Buleria can be played in Aminor). You also have tempo thats different, and -crucially - the aire of these palos. That kind of means the mood and emotions conveyed but these things don't translate too well. Think of it this way, if you were playing a Guajiras you want to be thinking about lazing on a beach in Cuba under a palm tree watching the girls go by. Bulerias on the other hand is full of nervous tension and energy just waiting to burst - totally different. The cante lyrics reflect this kind of stuff.

The only things that they have in common are a 12 beat cycle, and one possible pattern of accents within that cycle. However, when you start getting further into all this you find that even this doesn't hold true - there are many ways of accenting a bulerias, for example.

So that's why they sound different

For the second part of your question, see above - lots of good advice there ie take one palo at a time, get a flamenco metronome to jam along with, get a teacher if you can find a good one.

Juan Martin and Graf Martinez both publish great methods. Learning solo pieces is helpful, but only if you take the time to look beyond the falsetas ie there is a danger of 'not seeing the wood for the trees'.

Yes, learning some palmas can be helpful too. If I was teaching a beginner in the first lesson I'd have them clapping out the compas to Soleares before they pick up their guitar.

Leave bulerias for a while - its the hardest palo to learn. That's one thing you will usually find everyone agrees on

Jon

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 1 2004 8:44:25

Skai

Posts: 317
Joined: Sep. 12 2004

RE: Compas Structures (in reply to Skai)

Thanks for all the advice everyone..

To start off, I'm just an 18 year old from Singapore. Which means that.. LOL
1. I haven't seen any real teachers that teach flamenco guitar, let alone understanding compas.
2. The only book I've seen here is Juan Serrano's method which I already have. Sure I can play everything from there but it doesn't teach me anything more than some techniques and pieces. Overall, I've learnt almost nothing from it.
3. I don't have any financial resources to go to Spain.
4. No credit card to order books/videos!!

BTW just what makes the bulerias the hardest to get?

I was thinking of going to a flamenco dance class which says "Guitarists are welcome" but I'd probably make a fool out of myself if I don't study some palos first.. How should I prepare myself before going for something like this? eg. studying some common baile palos, learning falsetas etc.. Any tips?

Thanks.
Skai

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 2 2004 4:09:49

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Compas Structures (in reply to Skai)

Skai,
go to this site: http://herso.freeservers.com/clock.html
it's from a site called Sal's Flamenco Soapbox.

It describes the compas structures analytically. The next step is to take each form and try to clap along the beat with the music. Now look at the pieces in your Juan Serrano book and carefully analyze each one until you understand very well how they fit in compas. You may want to use a pencil for this. Spend lots of time on this because it will reward you. It will be easier if you stick to older styles of flamenco, pre-Paco de Lucia. In that era, the compas was a bit more clear. But once you have memorized the beats and applied them to your CDs, get over to that dance class and do whatever you can to be a part of it, or failing that, just watch. Accompanying the dance is key to your success in this endeavor!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 2 2004 6:13:55

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: Compas Structures (in reply to Skai)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Skai
BTW just what makes the bulerias the hardest to get?

Thats what the rest of us would like to know

Tempo, definitely for one thing. Its one thing having to cope with this bizarre 12 beat cycle at slow speeds (eg solea) but at bulerias speed, things are much harder to keep together.

Different patterns if accents, different styles of bulerias, contratiempo and god knows what else all combine together to make life difficult too. Listen to a Paco de Lucia Buleria and you have guitar technique developed to an insane level

Strangely, several methods and tutors teach bulerias by deriving it from solea, speeding things up, then talking about starting the accents on a different beat. I have to say that that I think this makes matters even worse and more confusing for someone learning it.
IMO its better to treat bulerias as something different and not confuse the issue with other palos (the stuff about buleria coming historically from solea is contentious anyway).

Learn the chords, learn the changes, learn what beats in the cycle are the important ones to 'aim' for, buy Ron's metronome and let it doing the counting for you.

Jon

PS Mike suggested Sal's excellent site above - have a look for his section on dance accompaniment for free samples of his CD. Also, the Flamenco Teacher lesson section has free Alegrias ands bulerias basic compas you can download (ie no falsetas, just the compas).

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 2 2004 9:24:45

Kate

Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía

RE: Compas Structures (in reply to Jon Boyes)

I was told a story by an old flamenco about bulerías, as we sat one night me trying to master it with everyone laughing at me. "They are pulling your leg ," he said, "that is the origin of the Bulería. Long ago when Gypsy music became fashionable and people came to learn, it was a game we played with payos. The minute the thought they had the rhythm, someone would change it subtly, accents would move, or they would clap the counterpoint and the payo would panic." As soon as I knew they were trying to catch me out and throw me off track I found it easier, well less panic and more like laugh like hell every time I lost it.

The night Remedios Amaya challenged me to sing Tom Jones por Bulería, there was discussion about the difference between how the Granada flamencos clap a bulería and how its done in Jerez. One of the Granada flamencos there demonstrated it and Remedios announced " están tomando el pelo" ( They're taking the piss).

So that's the reason we find it so difficult, they really are taking the piss. The 12 beat is outside of our musicial reference, precisely because its sole purpose is to frustrate the hell out of us foreigners and give all the flamencos a good laugh.

kate

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 2 2004 10:25:10