Reyes (Blackshear) bracing layout

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diazf

Posts: 52
Joined: Jan. 2 2006
From: NYC

Reyes (Blackshear) bracing layout

Any thoughts on why Reyes adds the 4 little connector pieces between the 7 fan braces close to the tail block on the Blackshear plan? He also uses a very long contrapuente under bridge. Isn't this counter productive to having less mass in the center of the soundboard? Appreciate any thoughts.
--Fabian

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 17 2009 13:46:04

Armando

Posts: 302
Joined: May 27 2005
From: Zürich, Switzerland

RE: Reyes (Blackshear) bracing layout (in reply to diazf)

Hi diazf

This is a question that Tom could answer best, but i will tell you my opinion as i have built this guitar as well.

The contrapuente on this particular Reyes model is rather thin (1/32"), so the weight added is little relatively to the increase of the lateral stiffness. Due to the use of a contrapuente we can work the soundboard thinner which saves weight. The Reyes system is an efficient bracing system and it workes very well.
The four small batches in between the central struts are there in order to strengthen the area where a slight doming appears.

The only thing that i wonder is, why Reyes placed the contrapuente in the center underneath the bridge. From a physical point of view the center of the contrapuente should be exactly underneath the frontend of the bridge as this is the place where the most torque takes effect. Maybe Tom knows more about that.

regards

Armando

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 18 2009 12:45:29

diazf

Posts: 52
Joined: Jan. 2 2006
From: NYC

RE: Reyes (Blackshear) bracing layout (in reply to diazf)

I'm building a cedar top with seven fan braces based on Santos. Top is 2 mm on the edges and around 2.4 in the bridge area. I was originally planning only to have the fan braces and no contrapuente.

Do you recommend these Reyes elements based on your experience. Do they tighten the top / volume substantially? Thanks Armando.
--Fabian

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 19 2009 15:43:28

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Reyes (Blackshear) bracing layout (in reply to diazf)

quote:

ORIGINAL: diazf

Any thoughts on why Reyes adds the 4 little connector pieces between the 7 fan braces close to the tail block on the Blackshear plan? He also uses a very long contrapuente under bridge. Isn't this counter productive to having less mass in the center of the soundboard? Appreciate any thoughts.
--Fabian

My thought on this is that Reyes might add this as a support toward the bottom to keep the thin top from wrinkling at the bottom of the top area. It also seems to lower the top's key about a semi tone. And the bridge strap is centered , perhaps due to the saddle placement being right at the edge rather than into the strap per se'. I've seen this placement on other Spanish guitars. Or it could be that the strap is just centered in the middle but is not wider to take more top area when not needed. I see that Miguel Rodriguez used a very thin width with his classicals.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 20 2009 5:29:56

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Reyes (Blackshear) bracing layout (in reply to diazf)

Fabian,

I think its a good idea not to mix the Reyes pattern with your Santos build.

A few thoughts. The long contrapuente is not a Reyes thing. I dont know who started using long contrapuentes, but I kow that Barbero started using it in the 50th. He did that in order to gain harmonics on the guitar. The guitarists of that time wanted something else than the very dry sounding guitars aka Santos etc.

I use a long contrapuente, but its very thin, a max of 1mm tapering out towards the sides. Its also narrow. some 12 - 15mm tapering out towards the sides as well. Besides the fact that I prefer the sound, it also helps controlling the dome of the soundboard. I now build "flat" but the contrapuente raises the soundboard 1- 1,5mm and does that you wont have problems with the soundboard sinking towards the sides.
Controlling the shape of the soundboard is very important IMO
With respect of Reyes litlle "conector pieces" I can imagine that what Tom says is correct. Maybe they serve a similar purpose as the closing struts that I and most other builders use. But if you want to be sure, better ask Reyes himself. I know that many of his guitars have been build without those wooden pieces.

Your Santos: First thing. It sound to me that 2,4mm in the center is very thick if you are using spruce. Especially on such a small guitar. I would personally, if using a high quality soundboard go down to 2,1 (maybe 2,2) in the center. And I would build with a long, thin and narrow contrapuente.
If the soundboard is good and you are building 2,4, the guitar will most probably end up having strong trebles but poor dynamics (percussiveness) and a poor balance. It will be very stiff to play and sound metallic.

In the end, making a good guitar is much more about achieving a good balance of all the componenets than using this or that bracing system, closing struts, contrapuente, asymetrical, symetrical etc. I´ve tried a lot of different systems. 4 of them I have worked intensively producing various guitars. They are all good systems and they all have their strong and not so strong sides. Getting a feeling for what is doing what is difficult and in the end you have to accept that 1 correct or best sound doesnt exist. There´s always some kind of compromise in the whole story.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 21 2009 1:20:57

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Reyes (Blackshear) bracing layout (in reply to diazf)

quote:

ORIGINAL: diazf

Any thoughts on why Reyes adds the 4 little connector pieces between the 7 fan braces close to the tail block on the Blackshear plan? He also uses a very long contrapuente under bridge. Isn't this counter productive to having less mass in the center of the soundboard? Appreciate any thoughts.
--Fabian

What Anders says is true and I have to say that this particular guitar was designed by Reyes to be what its supposed to be, a particular design on this guitar, not some other guitar that he built. If you follow the design, then you have the best chance to see a productive outcome. I told Kenny Hill the same thing when he mentioned to me that he saw some potential to alter it before actually building to the plan.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 21 2009 6:10:38

diazf

Posts: 52
Joined: Jan. 2 2006
From: NYC

RE: Reyes (Blackshear) bracing layout (in reply to diazf)

Tom/Anders--
Thank you both for your advice. It sounds like you both suggest using the long thin contrapuente regardless of bracing style. My hypothesis was that I could get away without one for a louder raspier sound. But durability is an important issue.

The soundboard is a high quality cedar top thats why it's slightly thicker than spruce. I'm pretty sure I can thin down the top some more but wanted to see how much flex it in the context of all the pieces.

By the way, do you ever assembly the guitar before finishing to test the tone and playability and then make any modifications before finishing? And is it essential to blue the bridge on after the finish has been applied? Seems to me that you can mask the bridge and french polish the body. Thanks again.
--Fabian

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 21 2009 15:37:33

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Reyes (Blackshear) bracing layout (in reply to diazf)

quote:

ORIGINAL: diazf

Tom/Anders--
Thank you both for your advice. It sounds like you both suggest using the long thin contrapuente regardless of bracing style. My hypothesis was that I could get away without one for a louder raspier sound. But durability is an important issue.

The soundboard is a high quality cedar top thats why it's slightly thicker than spruce. I'm pretty sure I can thin down the top some more but wanted to see how much flex it in the context of all the pieces.

By the way, do you ever assembly the guitar before finishing to test the tone and playability and then make any modifications before finishing? And is it essential to blue the bridge on after the finish has been applied? Seems to me that you can mask the bridge and french polish the body. Thanks again.
--Fabian

This isn't something that I need to be consulted with but I always glue the bridge on and string up the guitar with no finish. Then I adjust or fine tune and remove the bridge and finish the guitar top with masking tape on the bridge area. If the top seems to be too stiff then I remove a little more wood off the top area around the center surrounding, and under the bridge. Perhaps not more than about .5 mm; a very small amount. This is to correct the top flex.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 21 2009 18:05:57

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Reyes (Blackshear) bracing layout (in reply to diazf)

I glue the bridge before French polishing and polish it all in one go.

2,0mm on the edges of a cedar to is very thin IMO. Also why do you want such a big difference between center and edges?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 22 2009 23:34:06

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Reyes (Blackshear) bracing layout (in reply to diazf)

The two negras i completed were 2.3 flat across the sound board the strutting is similar in layout to santos. One of the tops was weaker so i put a thin bridge plate under it and the other didnt. the sounds were supprisingly close together. The brige plate did give the instrument a slightly less dry tone fuller sounding trebles but not losing the bright snap!

personally polishing is easier masking off the bridge area then gluing the bride on afterwards. its just a bit tricky to get the polishing around the bridge area done properly

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Classical and Flamenco Guitars www.EdenGuitars.co.uk

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 23 2009 1:02:16