Escobilla - Alegria

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Escobilla - Alegria

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XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

Escobilla - Alegria

Hey could someone tell me what occurs more frequently? Starting on 1 or 12??
And do you have ever seen a llamada starting on 12 and end on 9? Isnt that atypical for Alegrias?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 5 2009 4:22:45

Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: Escobilla - Alegria (in reply to XXX)

Hi Deniz, for the Escobilla I always start on 1, finish on 10, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if someone else does something different! Same for llamadas.

Even if a phrase started on 12 I would never finish on 9. If I wanted a particular bit of syncopation I might finish on 9-and.

Ailsa

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 5 2009 4:39:03

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Escobilla - Alegria (in reply to Ailsa)

Hi Ailsa has is pretty much spot on except that typical escobila falseta that goes
.....(cierre).......(cierre).
123 456 789 101112 so it ends on 12 (similar to a solea falseta)

typically a lamada starts on 1 and ends on 10...but where it ends can change depending on what the dancer wants to do..i finished in all kinds places before 9 ...or 9 and...bassically the rules are like a guide to follow ..unless you get told otherwise for a certain choreography...but both should work...the typical should work compaswise with anything the dancer might do...weather they finish on 9...9 and or 10...weather u play it or not...its still there even if its silent or whatever

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 5 2009 11:55:33

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Escobilla - Alegria (in reply to XXX)

Its very valuable for me to hear other dancers' viewpoints, thank you Ailsa for this!

Flo, "its still there even if its silent or whatever"... that is my problem, its not there. The choreography is skipping one beat. The eleven is not there. To my definition this is out of compas. I end on 8 with the escobilla, then theres 2 beats silence, then the steps start on 11, but i have been told to restart counting the 11 as 12.
We counted the escobilla like it would start on 12, but maybe we were wrong and it starts on 1. If so, than the whole thing inclusive the steps would be in compas. But dancer is saying that her escob starts on 12... well we are still in negotiations

I mean, did you ever accompanied something like an 11 beat compas?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 5 2009 13:17:47

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Escobilla - Alegria (in reply to XXX)

quote:

I mean, did you ever accompanied something like an 11 beat compas?

i cant remember..

i dont know man ..if this dancer knows what shes doing go with her...she might have a specific thing in mind i dont know but might not have the skill to explain it...try to clear your brain of what you know and just follow her and see if it works and how it works...get others opinion in your group

if shes not experienced ..or it dosent work..tell her its no good doing all this crazy stuff if it makes no sence musically..i am trying to picture what u saying but without seeing it its really hard to imagine ....IT MIGHT just be something that works but shes counting it different

try it her way first...clear your brain of everything you know...ask her where she got the choreography from and if she has an audio or video..or even something of her doing it previously, anything of anyone doing it..she must have gotten it somewhere...that might help..one way or the other you will clear it up

sometimes they get a version of a choreography wrong or forghet it or change it ...and sometimes its something different specific..all depending how much faith you have on the dancers experience

theres all kinds of things that its done in dancing...for example a full stop..when the dancer just walks around before starting again..ideally even that is in compas but not always ...sometimes it just is a stop and takes as long as he/she wants and you start again with them...so the compas gets put on hold momentarely...for stuff like that you have to clear your brain of what you know and just follow blindly

or on the last compas sometimes the dancer and guitar finish on 9 togheder ( that sometimes gets done in Alegrias, Solea por Bulerias ...its really cool )

the compas is just a common starting point reference sometimes..experienced dancers sometimes get or take a certain amount of artistic freedoom as long as there no singing or anything else happening

how experienced is she ?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 5 2009 13:34:59

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Escobilla - Alegria (in reply to XXX)

Its a choreography by a teacher in Spain. According to the dancer it is supposed to skip a beat there, the above is her way of counting. What i dont know is, whether the teacher (in Spain) not started the escobilla on 1, because that would bring the steps of the llamada into compas, which means start on 1 end on 10. And there is no break, the palmas are kept trough, but they are just straight palmas.

I dont think im qualified to judge how experienced she is. First off, i am not experienced. But i am usually versed in counting and fitting things into compas, and this thing is clearly out. I would need an experienced accompanist to tell me what to do. I dont have video, but its exactly like i say. Its not only this particular passage. What about other things where beats are being skipped? For example ending on 9s.

I dont know. Sometimes i think, people in general have a problem to feel compases like Alegrias and Solea, because these forms start on an unaccented beat. Of course you can start on 12 and make a golpe, but the actual music and the steps often start on 1.

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Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 5 2009 14:02:58

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Escobilla - Alegria (in reply to XXX)

quote:

Its a choreography by a teacher in Spain. According to the dancer it is supposed to skip a beat there, the above is her way of counting. What i dont know is, whether the teacher (in Spain) not started the escobilla on 1, because that would bring the steps of the llamada into compas, which means start on 1 end on 10. And there is no break, the palmas are kept trough, but they are just straight palmas

the llamada guitar plays starts on 1 but its not uncommon for whatever the dancer does to start on 12 and or other counts...as long as it works with what you do

my advice ..try really hard to understand what shes saying..ignore what you know..tell her to go slow until you get it....you can count it whatever way it makes sence to you...its just numbers the main thing is to get it

i have finished on 9 before..

it could be that shes wrong too i am not dismissing that at all...its really really hard to say one or the other without seeing or hearing it....but if shes more experienced then you...make an effort to do it her way ...u might just be getting confused or put off by the the numbers and the counting and trying to rationalize it with numbers...but it might make more sence rithmically

oh can also get her to do it along with the solo compas cd...while u watch and count along...either she will realize that what shes doing makes no sence or you will hear the way it fits over normal compas..she must practice it to something

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 5 2009 14:17:40

orsonw

Posts: 1941
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Escobilla - Alegria (in reply to XXX)

I just came home from working on an alegrias with a great dancer. We spent a couple of hours on just one 8 compas passage for a piece we're writing. This part has so much contratiempo from her but is still very flamenco. Sometimes breaking the usual accents and then pulling back together is powerful and expressive and very flamenco.
I enjoy the fact that some more modern choreography has accents all over the place- off beats and the ones inbetween those, starts and stops in unusual places. It means I have to write new material specifically that fits, I can't just pull out the stock falstetas or llamadas. I've learnt so much working with dancers and singers, who have a totally different approach to flamenco than guitarists.
It's inspiring. Some times counting helps but I often find listening to the phrases of the choreography and responding musically is best then- interesting things can happen. I think it's good to take risks- break some rules. I only play flamenco and I'm not into wierd fusions but I am into creativity.
This is when the creative process becomes interesting- collaboration. Of course you need good people to work with- who's style you like and who are fun to work with.
Enjoy yourself
Orson

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 5 2009 15:12:07

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Escobilla - Alegria (in reply to XXX)

Forget that about the ending on 9, i was wrong with that! But please lets not make this a thread about counting. I dont have a problem with counting or contratiempos. But i have a problem if compas is being ignored.

Ok here are some recordings i made for the dancer. First i made the one in compas, then she told me to remove one beat in the break and re-record it without compas track. As i said above, its the 11 that is missing. It counts like this... beats 9 and 10 are silent
12 1 2 .... 3 4 5 ... 6 7 8 (9) (10) 12 1 2 .......

Escobilla in compas
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=B402U3MZ

Escobilla without compas
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=02YRYEA0

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 5 2009 23:57:00

orsonw

Posts: 1941
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Escobilla - Alegria (in reply to XXX)

I'm with you on this one Deniz. (Though it's hard to judge completely without seeing or hearing the choreography.)
I like the 12,3,6,9 feeling of starting the escobilla on 12 but I would prefer having a whole compas and leaving the 11 where it should be. On some occasions it feels good to stretch time or have free time but this seems more like a mistake than having any artistic value?
Regards Orson

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 6 2009 7:31:32

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Escobilla - Alegria (in reply to XXX)

Maybe she's talking about how you started the escobilla on 12 instead of 1 in the "in compas" version? It sounds unusual.

Maybe she starts her steps on 12, but I think you should still start your bit on 1. You can still accent 3 6 9 12, just do it the flamenco way and put the accent on the LAST of each group of 3 beats. A lot of escobillas are accented this way, especially on 3 and 9.
But then again, it's all up to her isn't it... We guitarists just follow orders

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 6 2009 8:12:52

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 6 2009 12:01:23

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Escobilla - Alegria (in reply to XXX)

quote:

Forget that about the ending on 9, i was wrong with that! But please lets not make this a thread about counting. I dont have a problem with counting or contratiempos. But i have a problem if compas is being ignored.

Ok here are some recordings i made for the dancer. First i made the one in compas, then she told me to remove one beat in the break and re-record it without compas track. As i said above, its the 11 that is missing. It counts like this... beats 9 and 10 are silent
12 1 2 .... 3 4 5 ... 6 7 8 (9) (10) 12 1 2 .......

sorry had a bitt on havent had a chance to get back in and listen to the audios...but now romerito and deteresa1 did, i am sure theres nothing to add

i didnt mean to suggest its something you doing wrong man or that u have any prob...i was just trying to say..consider all the possibilities before we assume it was her...the goal is to make it work not to point fingers at whos wrong and whos right...that wouldnt help the alegrias

thats how i approach it, i dont care who got it wrong or right..it just needs to work out and well sitt there till it does...but u cant get stuck in your mindset and just say "thats wrong" u have to consider all possibilities ..she might count it differently to me....she might have "lifted" it from a video and its something not straight foward or commonly practiced....and yes she might have even forghot a choreography and changed it and it has now throwed it all out of wack....or she lacks the skill to convey it to me in a way thaat makes sence to me but dosent necesarely mean shes wrong....and finally ..yes she could be wrong too...but il consider all else before i arrive to that

but my suggestion is always ...try it her way first..even if it dosent always match up with what you know...while we do the same thing we have different ways of approaching it or thinking about it or expresssing it...

but i am not in anyway suggestion whos mistake it is, i certainly wasent suggesting that you haave some sort of problem with the compas..until i hear it or see it i have no idea ...

i say it cause many times il think " no shes wrong" then we move on with her now questioning herself and then after about 20 minutes out of the blue it hitts me.. "****

...shes not wrong!...i used to play it differently and it made sence...it was me ..poor girl just didnt know how to convey it to me....dosent matter whos right or wrong as long as it gets worked out

too much self assurance and confidence its sometimes counterproductive

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 6 2009 20:12:06

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Escobilla - Alegria (in reply to Florian)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Florian
i say it cause many times il think " no shes wrong" then we move on with her now questioning herself and then after about 20 minutes out of the blue it hitts me.. "**** ...shes not wrong!...i used to play it differently and it made sence...it was me ..poor girl just didnt know how to convey it to me....dosent matter whos right or wrong as long as it gets worked out

I know that feeling, except in our relationship, I am the girl

Its not a joke.
Of course youre right, it needs to work out. I was only interested in the technical side of this thing. I dont count while playing, i just realize it doesnt work somehow, and then i start to count and realize its not in compas. You say one should never tell a dancer she or "it" is not in compas? I dont know man, i just started 2 years ago with dance. Thats a good excuse in case im wrong

I for one, wouldnt have the confidence to play something which is deliberately not in compas on stage.

Anyways, the hardest thing will be convincing that the Escobilla actually starts on 1 and not on 12. I am planning to buy some flowers and candy, drive to her and fall on my knees in front of her, while i am revealing this horrible discovery in tears.

Ok jokes aside... i will try to make it as soft as possible. Different characters need different treatment. And we both are very stubborn so...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 6 2009 23:35:59

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Escobilla - Alegria (in reply to XXX)

well u need good honest communication...u shouldnt feel like beeing scared to discuss it with her....i have that with the girls i work with i can just say ' no that dosent work" and they the same to me without anyone getting upset..i even sometimes as a joke stop in the midlle of it and scream " What the **** is that ?

" lol we just lough about it

tell her that your goals and hers are the same.. to get better and do as good a show as possible...so thats why u need to be able to be honest and open to eachother...no need to **** eachother...if u not both 100% comfortible with something u need to sort it out

u need to let her know early on that its a 50 - 50 relatiosnship...noone is running anyone, u togheder...too many dancers will try to take complete control and forghet that theyr dance is just as much your moment and you work as theirs

but i understand about fear of disagreeing..but a time will come where you will want just as much say on how things turn out if not allready...dont be embarassed to raise concerns..its your gig too

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 6 2009 23:47:12

Ricardo

Posts: 14848
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Escobilla - Alegria (in reply to XXX)

It is a common problem here. The first recording is simply wrong. You should not force THAT melody into the wrong place in the compas. If you simply leave the first accent off and shift it all over 1 beat, but accent count 9 normally, it will work fine. The dancer will feel it and it will all work out. But I have seen this problem where the dancer is "correct" but they feel it wrong because their guitar or Cajon palmas or whatever accents wrong and they get it stuck in their head that way. That is a problem cuz those things are hard to "unlearn" and the moment it shifts to true bulerias, it becomes a mess.

My feeling is if the dancer seems to accent 1,4,7,10, you should still keep accenting 3,6,9,12 anyway to keep it together. They way you played the melody is shifted and you should not even let yourself get it in your head that way, cuz now you have to shake it out. The way it sounds to me is your melody accents 2,5,8,11 relative to your backing loop, because it is how the melody sits in my head and heart. So change that right away cuz you are messing up the feel for yourself and her. Hope you see what I mean. Good luck man!

quote:

We counted the escobilla like it would start on 12, but maybe we were wrong and it starts on 1.

Regardless where the escobilla starts or YOU start playing, your melody or strumming must fit a specific way so the accents line up. It could be the feet start on 12 but you just hit the golpe or the end of the arpegio there, and the melody that starts on 1 ends up having the accents all line up in the right place as you continue.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 7 2009 10:18:10