String Break Angle

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String Break Angle

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HolyEvil

Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

String Break Angle

Hi there guys, I just got my guitar back from the shop, I had a bone saddle installed, the guys at the store told me that I can't lower my action anymore, according to my inaccurate tape measure it's a hair over 3mm.

But i had a chance to play with my teachers Jose Romero guitar today and MAN it sounded good. and the action was unbelievable. I measure 'inaccurately with my thumbnail" and the action at the 12th fret low E would be about 2.5mm.
I checked out the saddle and it's crazily low. It looks even lower than the part where you tie the string to. But the crazy thing is that his guitar sounded beautiful! no buzz at all. I posted some pics..
http://www.flickr.com/photos/36503400@N05/sets/72157615843655712/

So just wondering would I be able to get my saddle down that low to get a lower action? I was just thinking another 0.5mm off the saddle would be good for me, but the shop won't do it.

cheers

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2009 5:16:54

kovachian

Posts: 506
Joined: Jan. 30 2008
From: Americanistan

RE: String Break Angle (in reply to HolyEvil)

Does anyone at the shop play flamenco and understand the details of a good flamenco guitar?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2009 5:50:07

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: String Break Angle (in reply to HolyEvil)

damn. i've never seen anything like that.
i would play the guitar first and see if it needs to be any lower. each guitar is different. yours might not be able to get that low.

after trying it, and you decide it can be lower, you can always do it yourself. it's a pretty simple and safe procedure. just dont get greedy and take too much off!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2009 6:21:58

HolyEvil

Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

RE: String Break Angle (in reply to kovachian)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kovachian

Does anyone at the shop play flamenco and understand the details of a good flamenco guitar?

the 1st guy said, it's a flamenco so it's doesn't matter if it buzzes and the action is low already compared to classicals.

the 2nd guy said it's a very low action for a classical. I said it's meant to be a flamenco so can it go lower? and he said it's low for a classical and usually the action are way higher than what I have..

=(

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2009 6:25:11

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: String Break Angle (in reply to HolyEvil)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HolyEvil

But i had a chance to play with my teachers Jose Romero guitar today and MAN it sounded good. and the action was unbelievable. I measure 'inaccurately with my thumbnail" and the action at the 12th fret low E would be about 2.5mm.
I checked out the saddle and it's crazily low. It looks even lower than the part where you tie the string to. But the crazy thing is that his guitar sounded beautiful! no buzz at all. I posted some pics..
http://www.flickr.com/photos/36503400@N05/sets/72157615843655712/

So just wondering would I be able to get my saddle down that low to get a lower action? I was just thinking another 0.5mm off the saddle would be good for me, but the shop won't do it.

cheers

When action is set like the Romero in the picture is becomes a high maintenance problem. The slightest wear on the saddle will need to be addressed. Usually a guitar with action like the Romero is caused by a luthier's error. That guitar has no room to allow action adjustment should the neck move slightly or the top bulge due to high humidity. It's better to have the saddle set to about 8mm from the top of the guitar and still be able to achieve 2.5mm at the 12th fret.

Assuming your neck is straight all you have to do is lower the saddle on your guitar until it starts buzzing then put a piece of paper under it as a shim and it should play fine. There are lots of places on the internet where lowering action is explained.

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John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2009 6:56:04

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: String Break Angle (in reply to HolyEvil)

I agree with what you say John. To low a bridge setup is normally because the neckangle is wrong. When the setup goes below 6,5 - 7 mm at the bridge it becomes a problem.

On this Romero though, I´m not sure its the case. To me it looks more like it has an enourmous tie block, so that it looks like the bridge setup is very low. But again the photos dont really make anything very clear.

Another thing. 2,5mm can be very nice when you play solo and dont have to push to much, but in noisy environments it can be to low, never mind the most fantastic guitar

Holy evil, if your guitar is 3mm, its good. Its a standard setup. but do as John sais and see how low it can be withot causing to much power loss.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2009 12:34:54

HolyEvil

Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

RE: String Break Angle (in reply to HolyEvil)

thanks for the replies..
but the thing about the Romero is that it is actually just as loud as my guitar..

I'll just leave the action on my guitar the way it is. it's better to teach me finger strength as I'm just starting out in flamenco.

cheers for all the replies!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2009 13:43:09

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: String Break Angle (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

On this Romero though, I´m not sure its the case. To me it looks more like it has an enourmous tie block, so that it looks like the bridge setup is very low. But again the photos dont really make anything very clear.

Look at the angle of the 6th string on the saddle in the third picture Anders. It appears much too flat.

quote:

thanks for the replies..
but the thing about the Romero is that it is actually just as loud as my guitar.

Holyevil,
I haven't played a Romero but I understand he is a fine maker. Not surprising the guitar might be as loud as yours even though the action is lower that's one of the characteristics of quality hand made guitars. Of course none of this negates what I said above.

Why don't you go ahead and try to lower your action? The worst that could happen is you may screw up and need to make a new saddle. You might end up learning something and have a guitar that's much more fun to play.

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John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2009 15:12:31

HolyEvil

Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

RE: String Break Angle (in reply to jshelton5040)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jshelton5040

Why don't you go ahead and try to lower your action? The worst that could happen is you may screw up and need to make a new saddle. You might end up learning something and have a guitar that's much more fun to play.

Hi there John, don't think I'll do it on the new bone saddle that I got, but I might sand down the original plastic saddle it came with.
I just use the finest sandpaper and sand away on a flat surface eh? that's what most website says. Stick sand paper on flat table and sand away.

thanks for all the advise, much appreciated!

cheers

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2009 20:32:09

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: String Break Angle (in reply to HolyEvil)

by the way holy evil, a rule of thumb is if you want to lower your action by 0.5mm at the 12th fret you have to lower it by 1mm at the saddle.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 25 2009 0:54:28

ngiorgio

Posts: 168
Joined: Nov. 1 2005
From: Florida, USA

RE: String Break Angle (in reply to Stephen Eden)

quote:

On this Romero though, I´m not sure its the case. To me it looks more like it has an enourmous tie block, so that it looks like the bridge setup is very low. But again the photos dont really make anything very clear.

Why would a fine builder such as Romero use a bridge with such a high tie block? I have seen this on quite a few flamencos from well known makers. Shouldn't the tie block be the same height as the saddle slot?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 25 2009 8:09:09

acziraky

Posts: 10
Joined: Jan. 19 2009

RE: String Break Angle (in reply to HolyEvil)

Will an increase in humidity effectively cause action to be lowered as the wood expands? Just wondering because summer is coming and it gets very humid in southern Ontario.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 14 2009 5:44:25

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: String Break Angle (in reply to acziraky)

quote:

ORIGINAL: acziraky

Will an increase in humidity effectively cause action to be lowered as the wood expands? Just wondering because summer is coming and it gets very humid in southern Ontario.

Actually it's quite the opposite. Increased humidity raises the action.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 14 2009 6:02:32