one experience from accompanying dancers

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aleksi

Posts: 528
Joined: Nov. 10 2008
From: Helsinki, Finland

one experience from accompanying dancers

Hello everybody,
I would like to share some experiences with accompanying dance.
I ve been playing cana couple of times and today was my first time with tangos. I was without teacher this time, all alone with my guitar :), and at first it really felt like that.

Its so different to play alone than to a class full of dancers with loud shoes. I first realized that all my techniques that Im familiar doesnt work. I mean I couldn get my rasquedos sound over the tapping of their feet. I was a bit lost for a while and the dance teacher also mentioned about my volume but then I changed all my rasquedos to one technique. POWER INDEX. That saved me 'cause with that I could somehow fight and get the sound over the dancers.

After all it went allright and it was a great experience. For the next time I know to prepare for some loud playing.
I hope this will also prepare some other who are going first times to accompany.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 14 2009 10:46:07

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: one experience from accompanying... (in reply to aleksi)

Hi Aleksi,

I suppose that's down to the difference of playing in our bedrooms and playing "de verdad"!

I've noticed over the years on the Internet, that the emphasis has shifted from good Rasgueado technique, to focussing on cool chord changes and nice runs etc.

That's why I respect guys like this, who would blow many of us out the door.

(Maybe not Jason McGuire though!....

)

I posted it a few days ago, but not one person on a Flamenco Forum chose to comment!

Admittedly Aurora is a bit of the Dolly Parton with the Spanish Flamenco TV shows, but she gets good guitarists on her shows!
(In this case Quique Paredes)

Anyone worried about dance accomp and getting volume....study this!

It's just the "max-out...up/down" movement done with style!

To me, THIS is Flamenco Dance accomp....not noodling around with "expressive and soulful" stuff!

(Christ!..It even makes ME want to get up and dance...and I cant!!

)

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 14 2009 11:35:23

Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: one experience from accompanying... (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

I posted it a few days ago, but not one person on a Flamenco Forum chose to comment!

Sorry Ron I did watch it but was just rushing around and didn't have time to respond. And now I'm on the spot I can't think of anything meaningful!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 14 2009 11:48:34

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: one experience from accompanying... (in reply to aleksi)

Just straight-up great Bulerias, the way it should be played.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 14 2009 12:16:52

Ricardo

Posts: 14833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: one experience from accompanying... (in reply to Ron.M)

Ron, that guy is good, but there is tons of compression.... he plays quite soft at times too. Pretty much like any normal player.

My advice is, dont' kill yourself for dance classes. No player in spain plays so loud that their volume can kill tons of stomping dancers. You need to either have a very dry room to rehearse with dancers, are get a suitable sound system so you can play with normal techniques, like the guy in Ron's video.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 14 2009 14:15:41

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: one experience from accompanying... (in reply to Ricardo)

Maybe so, Ricardo. He obviously doesn't play quite like that on his solo stuff!

The thing that grabbed me most was the fact that he's providing practically ALL of the rhythm, in that the palmeros are not really giving it stick and there is no cajon.
The guy is working like a one-man boogie box and those rasgueados are just crystal... cutting and spot on.

I think sometimes that Flamenco students and hobbyists, since they are probably listening mainly to solo or cante CDs, forget that these guys CAN play like this when they want to!

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 15 2009 0:23:07

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: one experience from accompanying... (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

those rasgueados are just crystal... cutting and spot on

i think you can only get rasgeos really crystal and cutting if they are actually quite light, 'cos then you get more precision.... and he can do that here partly 'cos he's got a whopping great big soundsystem to play through.... in a lot of the first part of the cante accompaniment he's playing quite light, but it really cuts because of that precision and crispness.

then notice in the baile accompaniment he really gives it welly but it's a lot less crisp.... fine for banging out a strong accompaniment to a lot of stamping, but not the same clarity.... i think this vid is great partly 'cos it shows these 2 extremes (and some in betweens) in one piece (and partly 'cos i like these performers, and this performance!)

p-a-i triplets are more crisp, but p-ma-p triplets are louder

down-up with i is more crisp, but down-up with ma-p is louder

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 15 2009 4:49:30

Ricardo

Posts: 14833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: one experience from accompanying... (in reply to Ron.M)

With the exception of his rasgueado at the end where he is doing triplets with up down stroke, and dividing those with tresillos (creating that sort of "dirty" wall of compas accented in 6's), his playing is totally normal to me. His playing during soloing would be prettymuch the same except he is not only doing compas, you focus your ear on falsetas, but his compas strumming will still be the same stuff. I know guys that actually, IMO, play WAY harder than this guy, what I would call abnormally heavy handed....

Incidently the reason that strum sounds dirty is becasuse it creates an odd meter...

Down up down...up down up....down up down...up down up...is the wrist, so those are triplets, 3 strokes per beat. but he does tresillos on those...

am p p(u) am p.....p(u) am p p(u)....am p p(u) am p....p(u) am p p(u)...etc.

So it is like 5x and 4x but you just feel straight triplets with the wrist....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 15 2009 6:27:04

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: one experience from accompanying... (in reply to mark indigo)

Yeah Mark, and I think another parameter is speed or attack.
Force=Mass X Acceleration, so these rasgueados come off louder just due to the slickness, rather than just pressing harder as a lot of students do. (and also tires you out quicker!)

I mean as a test, just holding a finger against your thumb and letting it flick the strings sounds ultra loud (especially on a bright Flamenco guitar), even though you are not pressing particularly hard.

Being able to achieve that final finger velocity on string contact from a "standing start" (ie no flicking) takes a lot of training!

These Flamenco pros tend to have extremely short response times (fast attack) in EVERYTHING they do be it pulgar, arpegio, picado, alzapua or rasgueado and that IMO is one of the main things that separates them from the good student.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 15 2009 6:29:25

aleksi

Posts: 528
Joined: Nov. 10 2008
From: Helsinki, Finland

RE: one experience from accompanying... (in reply to aleksi)

I just got back from accompanying cana, and I must say thats lot easier than tangos when it comes to loudness. I managed it much better. Still it was a good practice of producing big sound. I just wonder how will it be when its going to be bulerias.

Ron,
that was inspiring, thanks for the link. It makes me also want to get up and dance

Ricardo,
thanks for the advice. Im having hard time with the volume, but I know that I can still do better with my guitar. I just have to find the way how to do it.
I dont use anything on my nails so the dance class is very consuming for them. For saving my nails somekind of compact amplifyer would be good, but in some twisted way playing as loud as possible feels good, almost therapeutic

Today I dont feel so frustrated and I didnt brake my fingers, which I suppose can happen when playing hard and not having proper technique, so up and down uproach satisfyes me well. Later i might change my mind and get that amplifyer.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 15 2009 10:26:47

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: one experience from accompanying... (in reply to aleksi)

As time goes by slowly but surely you'll be able to play all your techniques fitting to the dance. It does take a while. Have patience, it's worth it! And practice a lot with a metronome.

With large classes I always play with an amp, no use practising something you'll never do on stage. Though a couple of times I've noticed the volume off after 10 minutes and none of the dancers had said anything

. Good technique will help your volume and you won't learn it with cramped up muscles ripping into the strings.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 16 2009 3:44:31