the techniq of feeling

Costs are rising and times are tough.
Please consider a donation to keep this
place going.

Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.

You are logged in as Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >>Discussions >>General >>

Page: [1]

Message

<< Newer Topic Older Topic >>

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

the techniq of feeling

I was reading a classical guitar article the other day, and it postulated an interesting point, while bringing up the typical way guitar players are stereotyped. There is the "technically skilled but untalented student," who can play fast scales and very cleanly, but lacks feeling in his music, and the "talented but lazy" student who, although he may play sloppily, plays very expressively. It seems to me that of course we all have our natural inclinations, but that we shouldn't pigeonhole ourselves or others into these arbitrary categories. With the proper training and time anyone can acquire technical competence on the instrument--this is a controversial point with many people. But even more controversial, I believe that anyone can learn to play expressively, with feeling--from the heart.

I think this way of thinking is a bit rare. I play a lot of rumbas, and remarked to a friend that I wanted to learn how to play more "Spanish," less "white." He said that I couldn't do that becuase it's a certain way of feeling that the Spanish have. They are more emotional and the certain type of emotions that Spanish people have lead to the way they play. This is ridiculous. Certainly different cultures have different ways and degrees of expressing emotions. But still--upon further study, I realize that a lot of this simply has how the notes are played, in terms of dynamics and rhythm. For example, a lot of Latin music emphasizes the "clave" note, the note right before the second beat in the measure. This is the sound of salsa, of rumba, of tangos. I realize now that a lot of the Spanish sound I was looking for was simply the idea of emphasizing this note, of crafting my melodies to hit this note. It has nothing to do with the emotions of the Spaniard! Although there is a certain psychological state that this seems to put me in. I don't know how this works, perhaps because it is off the beat and therefore uncertain or bold in some way... blues does the same thing, when you play a little bit off the beat or really go for that bend or flat third. It does engender a distinct emotional reaction...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 26 2004 17:44:13

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: the techniq of feeling (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Hi Miguel!

I allways like your filosfys, but this time I do not agree with you.
( for everything is a first time my frend!)

I think you cannot learn to play from your heart, you get it or you don't.

Also I think it is not only a matter of expressing yourself, but also a matter, and that is way more difficult, to get your "message" to the other person, the audience.

Greetings, Peter

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 26 2004 19:29:18

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: the techniq of feeling (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

But why can't you learn how to play with your heart? I know that most people think this, but what is the basis of this opinion? Most people also think you are born with blinding speed picado, but I am proving the falseness of this to myself every day... People develop at different rates and they play music in different ways depending on their teachers, the kind of and intensity of music they have been exposed to, their life experiences and how they relate them to music, and many other factors. Any of these things are subject to change. Yet there is this myth that certain things are innate and cannot be taught. It can be taught, but it is not. Think of how many flamenco players, teachers, and books you have read, but how much of it gives you ideas about how to really communicate "aire" and "pasion" to the listener? Most music instruction is all about technique, and really basic technique such as how to move your fingers and how to make an Adim7 chord... but this has nothing to do with musicality. For this, perhaps the most important thing, scarcely a word is said. Because of the way music is taught, most students emphasize the technical aspects, which of course can take up a whole lifetime. But this is not an innate fault of the student but rather of the culture. Those few who devote themselves to communicating their emotions through music are simply nonconformists in this regard. And in any human endeavor, some people will be better than others. But to believe that a man cannot learn to play a song so that it touches people is a sad falsehood and self-imposed limitation.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 26 2004 19:59:07

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: the techniq of feeling (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Yeah Mike,
I think you've hit the nail on the head.
For example, I'm more at home in the Scottish dialect, so music, plays and even jokes etc arising from that culture I accept without thinking about.
Whereas it would probably seem foreign or simply unintelligible to you. (Or Simon LOL!)
Tuning into another culture is extremely difficult for an outsider.
Without a doubt, the Spanish folk I've met in the past definitely heard that Latin sound in music and felt the chords and rhythm more naturally than I did.
I guess things are changing a lot now.
Andalucian kids are brought up with a far broader musical outlook than they ever have done in the past, and I would guess a poll would rate mainstream pop music the highest.
Modern Flamencos have DVD players, Mobile Phones, Satellite Television and drive cars and travel on aeroplanes etc, so they cannot be thought of as an "uncontaminated" tribe apart from us with a culture that is only exposed on the odd television program like it was in the '60's when Spain was under Franco and Andalucia amongst one of the poorest provinces.
I see many young performers on Ondajerez TV who are exposed to all the modern trappings of life, but Flamenco has just grabbed them in the same way it has us.
So I think it is probably not so easy for them to simply drift into, and pick up Flamenco music and culture as it was in the past.
Remember, Vincente Amigo, Tomatito and Emilio Amaya have all said that the early Paco de Lucia was their inspiration for taking up guitar seriously, just as it was for a lot of us.
The difference is that the resourses for pursuing that are infinitely better in Andalucia than outside it.

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 26 2004 20:11:45

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: the techniq of feeling (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

I do not think it has anything to do with technique at all.

It is all a matter of expressing yourself, and feeling the here and now.

It is possible to put a message in just three notes.

Perhaps it is teachable, but not through music, more through live, and the position you take in that live.

for example: it is easy to say : "I care about you"

But it is hard to say "I care about you" so that the person FEEL that you care about him.

Peter.

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 26 2004 20:50:06

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: the techniq of feeling (in reply to gerundino63)

Peter,
it's like saying that you can't learn to act, either you can act or you can't. Yet every city has a school which teaches people how to act, and it works. I think you can even learn how to cry on command! So if you can learn to act you can learn how to play expressively.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 27 2004 5:18:21

bailoro2000

Posts: 93
Joined: Jul. 7 2003

RE: the techniq of feeling (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

If you will allow a view from a non musician:

I think personality comes into the frame. Take language for instance. Some people, whilst having a perfect command of English, for example, come across as slighly cold and impersonal, other have a natural warmth that people relate to instantly. I think this applies also to musicians and their music. That and mood at the time of playing. Would a recording done at 9 am on a cold morning sound the same as one done after a few drinks in the evening? Atmosphere, ambience, is also a factor IMO.

A case in point is the brilliant technical perfection of John Williams against the playing of Julian Bream. The latter, whilst making the odd error musically, has this same warmth in his playing that immediately appeals and characterises his personality. Any non-Spaniard playing singing or dancing flamenco is firstly imitating an art foreign to them.
It is then a case of many years of practising before their own confidence and personality comes through in what they do.

Trying to imitate a sound from someone else comes down to playing the right notes but with your own personality. It has to be this way or no one would know one musician from another. The of course there is the personality of the instrument. If all guitarists played the same guitar in the same way you might as well use a synthesiser. For me it is a case of us all being different. You might play PDL's work, but you don't have to be him to do it.

Just my views.

Jim.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 27 2004 7:26:56

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: the techniq of feeling (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Hi Miguel!

I agree with what you are saying, but now you are half way there, now you can act.
The next stap is to be that person, not to act it, is that possible?

Peter

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 27 2004 8:48:43

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: the techniq of feeling (in reply to bailoro2000)

Hi Jim!

I think you have the same goals as a guitarist, or any art form.
Get the message to the audience.

It need personality, somebody who is itself completely at the moment he is performing.

I have seen dancers, who do not hit me at al, but I have seen dansers ( last time with the Paco Pena Company) who, as soon as he started to move a hand, got my attention.

Peter

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 27 2004 8:55:32

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: the techniq of feeling (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Yes, I agree the personality of the musician must have a lot to do with it. There are people that we want to be our friends, and other people that we don't care for too much. I guess music has some analogies for this. Music is art. It is no more, and no less. And like all art, such as painting, acting, and sculpture, it is founded in Culture and Technique. Neither of these things is a static, unchanging, "God-given" attribute--each can be augmented.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 27 2004 13:28:25