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RE: Vicente Amigo -- "La Tarde ... (in reply to machopicasso)
it isn't accurate and it is a non-rhythm transcription. therefore its really hard to play that piece correctly. I recommend to use your ears and eyes. and good youtube vids like this to understand fingerings:
there is also a video of vicente himself playing that piece in concert, with very good quality. if you have problems with a few parts use the transcription, but try to get somewhere only with videos and audios. It is the best way to learn in my opinion. Your music gets much deeper you know. (and you become a better composer )
RE: Vicente Amigo -- "La Tarde ... (in reply to athrane77)
quote:
try to get somewhere only with videos and audios. It is the best way to learn in my opinion. Your music gets much deeper you know. (and you become a better composer
I've seen all of the videos thus far referenced on this thread. But thanks, anyway.
I agree that the ability to learn a piece by ear (and correctly) is extremely valuable. That said, sometimes one can discover things in a transcription which one never noticed through listening. This includes both aspects of the music which one didn't hear, as well as aspects of technique of which one was ignorant. Lately, I've been working through several of Faucher's transcriptions of Vicente, and I've learned a lot through doing so. Hopefully, one day he'll transcribe "La Tarde es Caramelo"...
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RE: Vicente Amigo -- "La Tarde ... (in reply to machopicasso)
True - "the ability to learn a piece by ear is extremely valuable.
"as well as aspects of technique of which one was ignorant." Very True
I play most things by ear probably because I'm dyslexic, but I have heard others play the same tune differently. They read music - then I check the notes and see a different note being used in a phrase. The thing with transcription is the extra information you get as opposed to scores. But then, we depend on the transcriber to be accurate in order to play authentically.
"Smoke on the Water" by deep purple has been played by over 3 generations of guitarist, most of whom play it wrong. So, our training in playing by ear, is enhanced by getting transcriptions when we can.
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RE: Vicente Amigo -- "La Tarde ... (in reply to machopicasso)
I dont post in this section normally, but i feel compelled to chip in my 2 cents.
I think its a sad thing to be dependant on other people's transcriptions.
Transcribing is as big a part of being a musician as the playing itself.
You have to be able to hear music. You hear the notes and chords. You recognize and identify them.
Using transcriptions is like filling out a crossword puzzle by looking at the answer key. Sure, you fill out the puzzle, but you didnt use your brain, and you 've done nothing to help yourself fill out the next puzzle. It just keeps you dependant on the answer key.
RE: Vicente Amigo -- "La Tarde ... (in reply to ToddK)
quote:
I think its a sad thing to be dependant on other people's transcriptions.
Transcribing is as big a part of being a musician as the playing itself.
You have to be able to hear music. You hear the notes and chords. You recognize and identify them.
Todd, your comment appears to presuppose that the principal, and perhaps only, value of a transcription is to, as it were, explain on paper the music one hears (or is trying to hear). If that presupposition were true, then I'd be inclined to agree.
But I think that presupposition is false. It's true that an accurate transcription provides a visual explanation of the music. But an accurate transcription can do more than that. It's possible to hear correctly what Vicente is playing and yet misunderstand the technique by means of which he produces that sound. This is particularly true when multiple fingering positions on the fretboard and/or multiple right-hand fingerings on the strings can conceivably be used to produce the same sound.
I value accurate transcriptions of songs by great players, in part, because of what I can learn from their technique.
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RE: Vicente Amigo -- "La Tarde ... (in reply to Guest)
Great reply, Shroomy. In time, however, I learned to appreciate Todd's seemingly frigid, stern scoldings. He is a bit of a "drill sergeant" of music, quite impatient with us weak and deficient amateurs. However, he has the guts to say it "as is" and imparts inportant and enduring lessons we'd better heed.
We are "playing around" with playing guitar, and indulge the immediately rewarding fun of it at the expense of proper training. I am glad he reminded us of the critical importance of training and exercising one's ear. Music is not fingering but hearing. I forget that too and will continue to, for lack of time, but my next "playing time" will incorporate listening more and playing less... Thank you Todd.
RE: Vicente Amigo -- "La Tarde ... (in reply to gj Michelob)
quote:
ORIGINAL: gj Michelob
Great reply, Shroomy. In time, however, I learned to appreciate Todd's seemingly frigid, stern scoldings. He is a bit of a "drill sergeant" of music, quite impatient with us weak and deficient amateurs. However, he has the guts to say it "as is" and imparts inportant and enduring lessons we'd better heed.
I guess if you want to spin it that way. Notice how someone like Ricardo, Erik Van Goch etc. doesn't come in and drop these borderline put downs when someone is brave enough to step up and post a video or ask a question. Instead I have only heard helpful advice.
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RE: Vicente Amigo -- "La Tarde ... (in reply to Guest)
I cannot disagree with your points, Shroomy, and command the showing of civil dialogue that you initiated on a subject which could easily get out of hand.
My affectionate remarks about Todd are due to knowing him through the GSI forum first and then this, for nearly a decade now, and to his consistent characteristic "shooting from the hip". I admire him immensely as a true musician and a sincere gentleman who never criticized anyone gratuitously or unfairly, only rather "harshly".
While I agree that it only benefits the Foro s health and growth to have a more polite tone in our posts, I would miss Todd's unvarnished remarks, if he ever became more subdued. Each one of us, somehow historical members on this blog, has overtime defined his own role and personality, and makes this place more interesting. Imagine if Tom B stopped posting about his Reyes plans or fine tuning technique ...
As our most distinguished member would close it... "Cheers"
RE: Vicente Amigo -- "La Tarde ... (in reply to machopicasso)
talent expresses itself in many forms, some people can transcribe, some compose, some play. its the rare bird that does it all effectively. most of us are players. we rely on others to compose and transcribe. are we the less of the musican? I always thought that's why classical has survived, its the same song played for 500 years, why? because in itself it stands alone.
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RE: Vicente Amigo -- "La Tarde ... (in reply to ToddK)
quote:
I think its a sad thing to be dependant on other people's transcriptions.
Transcribing is as big a part of being a musician as the playing itself.
More than a grain of truth in both these statements, but they are overstatements to my way of thinking.
The more transcription you do the better you get at it, but it’s still a very time-consuming process. (Someone once asked my friend Richard Lawrence how long it took him to transcribe a Sabicas piece. He replied, “Twenty years and one week-end"). Who has time to do everything?
Not be able to play by ear and not being able to read are both handicaps.
RE: Vicente Amigo -- "La Tarde ... (in reply to beno)
quote:
it isn't accurate and it is a non-rhythm transcription. therefore its really hard to play that piece correctly. I recommend to use your ears and eyes. and good youtube vids like this to understand fingerings:
there is also a video of vicente himself playing that piece in concert, with very good quality. if you have problems with a few parts use the transcription, but try to get somewhere only with videos and audios. It is the best way to learn in my opinion. Your music gets much deeper you know. (and you become a better composer )
That was me several years ago!!! hahaha out of compas :/
If i remember correctly there is a transcription form Miguel Angel Leiva, i don't like his transcriptions very much , and i believe i had to change a few things ..hope it helps
RE: Vicente Amigo -- "La Tarde ... (in reply to machopicasso)
"To play a flamenco piece exactly as it is on a transcription sheet is as dificult as pointless" Oscar Herrero.
A very good discussion you got here!
IMHO, transcriptions are very useful tools that helps a lot when you are overwhelmed by a piece. And takes a while to get familiar with the dissonant flamenco chords full of 9ths and 7ths. However, I have found that to train the ear is a must in music, especially in free form styles like jazz or flamenco.
When I want to play one piece, I usually look out for covers. For example "Luz en los Balcones" by Terremoto. There are two versions: one Miguel Poveda and a group of young girls (this one is funny because is so improvised one of the singers is changing a baby´s dipers). Anyway, the three versions are very diferent in guitar playing, and all of them are great.
And even the artists don´t try too hard to play the piece as in the record. Look for "Rompeserones" by Moraito live and record versions for example.
In classical music you need to play Bach´s pieces just as perfect as the sheet goes. Flamenco is not so tight in that way...
RE: Vicente Amigo -- "La Tarde ... (in reply to machopicasso)
When it comes to the question ear playing vs transcriptions i feel very blessed because i can enjoy the best of both worlds. Being the son of a (at first classical) guitar teacher my ears were tuned into processing guitar sounds even before i was born and at a very young age i was able to sing every classical guitar piece that was played (or better said studied) in my presence (quite a repertoire actually including the Bach Suites). When i was old enough to attend one of his concerts i was extremely surprised to hear him play complete pieces WITHOUT REPETITIONS...... at home he always studied fragments of pieces and fragments of fragments... and when he stopped halfway a Bach suite his 4 year old son continued singing from beneath the table :-).
At the age of 12 (playing the guitar for 3 years) i could easily outplay adult players when it came to finding the right chords to songs. While the adults were still surging the corresponding page in the songbook (only to discover it was published in a different key then the one chosen by the singers) i was already playing on automatic pilot since the first couple of notes had told me this (to me unknown) song was a typical C-major song with a capo at 4. Around that period of time i stopped taking guitar lessons from my father and started to ear play all the records of Paco Peña.
At 18 i consulted my first music book (well, the first one since i stopped taking lessons) covering a couple of songs of Harry Sacksioni. Not able to read classical notation i first had to translate it into tabs, using a handy translating-chart my father made me. When i tried to play the first results i soon had inflicting ideas so i consulted my father again..... Does this translation match what is written here? Yes it is.....but half of the notes are missing ??????:-( ??????....well, yes, publications like these are often simplified to make the music accessible to more people. Accessible my ass, i obviously lost interest in written music on the spot and decided (once again) to trust my ears rather then that bunch of idiots. Soon i ear played all the records of Flairck, playing both the guitar, 12-string guitar, bouzouki, citar, banjo and violin parts.
At 22 i auditioned for Paco Peña's university school of flamenco guitar, playing Sabicas farruca, Vicentes childhood tarantas and 2 pieces on 12 string guitar. As it turned out i had impeccable ears (i was the only one out of a 100 with zero mistakes in re-playing whatever they throwed at me) and since they valued my musicality as well they allowed me to enter. At the time i could not read notes, i had no idea of the name of the notes (i could only name the open strings) and i couldn't name a single chord by name. I didn't even now how to name a 3/4 or 4/4 beat.
At music university school i learned musical theory and how to write and read notes and rhythm (i secretly used my fathers hand written Bach partitures to practice reading since they were pretty easy to read and on top i knew that music by heart since i was 4 so i would immediately spot a mistake when i misplayed a note). I also had to learn again how to play the guitar (basically from scratch), trying to get rid of numerous bad habits, replacing them with better moves and fingerings.
My repertoire came partly from things i ear-eye-played myself and partly from things that were ear-eye-played and annotated by my father, who collaborated with Paco and happened to be the main teacher for (flamenco) technique, musical history and didactics. On top he was the one who single handedly produced over 1000 partitures of flamenco used by the institute. Those partitures are the very best flamenco partitures in existence, revealing in full detail the notes, rhythm, compas treatment, left and right hand finger management and the correct interpretation.
I'm pretty sure that for most people those particular partitures would be a better source of information than ear-eye-playing it themself. They showed me different and better ways of looking at things and different and better ways of using my hands and brain. Don't forget they pair 30 years experience of Paco (1 of the most refined flamenco players i know) with 30 years experience in transcription and didactics of my father (1 of the most knowledgeable and all round musicians i know with over 20.000 hours of stage-experience and even more hours on the clock as a teacher of classical/flamenco guitar). If they offer you there combined knowledge on a piece of paper it's worth to give it a serious look.
Memorizing a complete piece of Paco Peña from paper would took me about 3 hours. Ear playing it myself would cost me much much more time and only give me the right notes (but not necessarily the correct finger management and/or compas treatment)....1 student (way more experienced in flamenco then i was) was not able to read music and once needed 6 mounts to memorize Paco's solea por bulerias by monkey see, monkey do... i memorized the same piece in 3 hours, leaving me 12 lessons to work on interpretation with the masters (in stead of wasting valuable time with re-finding the notes week after week).
Also i use written music (tabs) to annotate and analyze the music i ear play. Only after i put it on paper i noticed Vicentes famous (price winning) soleares intro was missing 1 beat... 4 times in a row. I played that record hundreds of times without noticing it and Vicente himself overlooked it for over 10 years as well.
So as i see it, partitures can be very handy (and even a real eye opener when they are done by someone way more experienced then you are or by yourself for on paper analyses). Unfortunately many partitures that came to me via other sources were extremely difficult to read, pretty useless and sometimes even dead wrong (especially in finger management and rhythm). If i want to work out a falseta which is not included in my fathers collection, i don't look elsewhere but ear-play it myself. And with my present level of understanding (and my extremely poor reading skills) i prefer to ear-play basically all music myself (including the ones written out by my father).... it's part of the learning process, sharps the mind and in a way is more rewarding. But like i said, a huge part of my present level of understanding (like compas treatment, finger management, interpretation, phrasing etc.) comes straight from my fathers partitures....and his wise face to face lessons and corrections :-).
I can't answer the question about how accurate the Vicente piece is since don't play it myself. The link also offered a score of Manolo Sanlucars Solea por Bulerias. I checked the falseta i ear-played myself 20 years ago and it seemed to be a perfect match (as far as the notes are concerned because there was indeed no rhythm notation).
RE: Vicente Amigo -- "La Tarde ... (in reply to Erik van Goch)
Often there are two excellent and valuable ways of working. Why choose between them ?.
In this case I agree with Todd. Surely there is no better time to force yourself to use your ears than when you cant get the score you want.
Does that meant the score isn't useful. Not at all.
I am no great shakes when it comes to transcription but I don't worry about that too much and if there is something I really want then I can do it.
Another valuable skill is playing tunes by ear, at the drop of a hat and with conviction, first time through in any key. Again I am no great shakes at it but it is a great thing to work on.
So I guess I am saying there are three great ways of working on music. They are all valuable and with experience, as Eric is saying, they enrich and inform each other.
D. PS any taranscription without rhythm I disregard instantly, quicker to work with a recording than suffer shoddy work.
RE: Vicente Amigo -- "La Tarde ... (in reply to machopicasso)
In a perfect world. Music is to be enjoyed, not stressed over. Sabicas could not transcribe his own music, so don't put yourself down for not being perfect.
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RE: Vicente Amigo -- "La Tarde ... (in reply to rodrigovalt)
I am so pleased to make your acquaintance, Rodrigo, I have always enjoyed your channel [which came up whenever I searched for Vicente Amigo's videos on YouTube]. I particularly enjoyed your rendition of "Callejon de Luna" [embedded below].
I remember reading one of your exchanges there, complaining that you did not have a proper guitar, is that still the case? At any rate, it is a pleasure to see you on this Foro, you are a fine and dedicated musician, and have all of my admiration.
RE: Vicente Amigo -- "La Tarde ... (in reply to machopicasso)
quote:
I am so pleased to make your acquaintance, Rodrigo, I have always enjoyed your channel [which came up whenever I searched for Vicente Amigo's videos on YouTube]. I particularly enjoyed your rendition of "Callejon de Luna" [embedded below].
I remember reading one of your exchanges there, complaining that you did not have a proper guitar, is that still the case? At any rate, it is a pleasure to see you on this Foro, you are a fine and dedicated musician, and have all of my admiration.
Wow, thanks a lot for your kind words Giacomo... there was a period in which i wanted to learn only music from Vicente, I remember particularly Callejon De la Luna which is one of my favorites.
I sold that guitar already it was an Alhambra "luthier flamenco"... it had a decent sound but the distance between the strings in the bridge was uneven, it took me a while to figure that out, it didn't help me a lot with my picado as it was difficult with that issue. Now I own a blanca from Salvador Castillo, negra Hnos Sanchis Lopez, and a Conde form Gravina :)..
Thanks again! and i will upload some new stuff soon, I'm waiting for a footage that was taken a few days ago and will definitely upload that to youtube
THANKS GUITARBUDDHA!
in case you guys are interested I uploaded a new video in Facebook :
RE: Vicente Amigo -- "La Tarde ... (in reply to Guest)
It would take me an eternity to learn a piece strictly by ear, if I have the Tab and the recording, then I can figure out the notes, and listen to how it should sound. I then CAN learn a piece of music this way, and quickly enough.
I have neither time, nor inclination, nor lifespan to learn by ear. Sorry, it doesn't work for me. I think a lot of people are like me in this respect. Learning to play something by ear on the guitar, is like learning to speak my wife's Canotonese language - Not happening (in this lifetime).
Jeff
quote:
Sure Todd, but some of us haven't grown up playing music and analyzing it. Also, some of us don't have the time to spend transcribing. I tried it for some Argentine Tango pieces and due to the complex chords I felt it took too long to figure out especially when the technique itself requires time. For this reason and because they were no reliable transcriptions (from people that get it wrong), I actually commissioned the work to be transcribed since I really wanted to play the piece. I gotta say he did an excellent job although not 100% correct. I felt a moment of pride when I corrected one particular measure which to you may seem like nothing but to me represents a giant step forward.
Of course, keep in mind that I work 50+ hours/week and am married so not much extra time is allotted for transcribing and messing around with the guitar trying to nail down the chords. I wish I were like you and would have been introduced to music earlier. I feel like I have a good ear, but completely untrained. I also don't have much music theory background. All this would be possible if I didn't spend most of my time mastering my engineering job (which requires a lot of "extra curricular" pro bono learning). You know, I am trying not to kill people with my designs...
I mean, I really appreciate your two cents and believe them to be very valuable since you are such an accomplished and outstanding musician. But you don't always look at things from other perspectives. I guess you feel pity for me since you think it's "sad" that I can't transcribe my own music. Well, I think it's sad too... I wish it weren't that way and that I would have another lifetime to follow your advice, but life is short and tempus fugit.
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RE: Vicente Amigo -- "La Tarde ... (in reply to rodrigovalt)
quote:
Now I own a blanca from Salvador Castillo, negra Hnos Sanchis Lopez, and a Conde form Gravina :)..
Wow, what a nice collection you amassed, and what dramatic improvement from the Alhambra.
I liked the 'composition' you posted on FaceBook www.facebook.com/rodrigovaltflamenco [oddly enough, I didn't realize we were 'friends' already, but am pleased that we are
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