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xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1937
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: Why orchestra? (in reply to guitarbuddha

(@guitarbuddha, clean out your mailbox, i've been trying to write you here and i have no other way of reaching you!)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 20 2012 17:38:23
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3626
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Why orchestra? (in reply to shaun

quote:

Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Some people like it, some people don't.


just about sums up the for/against argument.... seems to sum up so many arguments/threads....
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 20 2012 18:17:18
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Why orchestra? (in reply to z6

quote:

But claiming his posts are too long for a forum is dead wrong. They're too long for you, you mean, which is fine.


Of course and thats why I´m participating less and less on the forum. I dont have the energy or time to read through long threads with long posts.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 20 2012 18:45:04
 
estebanana

Posts: 9466
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Why orchestra? (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ

Sorry my posts are long Anders. I'm clearly some type of frustrated writer, probably a latent art critic or expert on the horse races who is making guitars too often to have time to write.

When I was in school and for much a time after I felt very insecure about writing even though I had a lot to say. I had family members who were writers said some pretty biting things about my writing which did not help either, then in grad school my professor advisor said my thesis was a train wreck. He in fact, is a terrible writer. Eventually by writing about guitar making on various forums I gained about more skill by trying my best to write in detail and express clear ideas. Those who said my writing was terrible recanted and said it was not quite terrible now, but upgraded from train wreck to fender bender.

So now that I'm out of the woods and not totaling cars, boats, aircraft and trains with my syntax and punctuation, I feel compelled to torture you and others with my long posts. I have an audience, albeit one strapped to the iron rails and ties of the luthery section of this foro. I still have more to say, and I am passive aggressively taking out my frustration on other foro member instead of writing long crazy letters to family members and former professors.

Please accept my apologies for my compulsive behavior, errant mind and propensity to wear a black felt villain hat and rope unsuspecting foroists to train tracks.

Cheers!
Stephen

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 20 2012 19:22:06
 
Escribano

Posts: 6440
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Why orchestra? (in reply to estebanana

That was a bit long though, Stephen

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 20 2012 19:37:00
 
z6

 

Posts: 225
Joined: Mar. 1 2011
 

RE: Why orchestra? (in reply to Anders Eliasson

I understand Anders. But there's a difference between not reading posts and announcing you're not reading them because they're too 'looooooooong' for a forum.

I enjoy Estebananas posts (and they're very well-written). It's easy for someone to assume an opinion represents many when it's so stark. I just wanted him to know his musings are not only not being ignored, but enjoyed.

I also enjoy reading your thread about your build. It looks very beautiful, and I find the photos, and explanations, of the process fascinating.

Hopefully, these threads will be around for a long time. One day you might come upon some of his crazy rantings and they'll put the same smile on your face that they put on mine. A smile not so different from the one I have when I see your rosette, or read why you sand the top the way you do.

It's all good stuff.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 20 2012 21:01:44
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: Why orchestra? (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ

Sorry Richard I had no idea will do that now.

D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 20 2012 21:51:23
 
estebanana

Posts: 9466
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Why orchestra? (in reply to XXX

quote:

I can hardly stand two guitars if its not exceptional players. Guitar ensembles suffer the lack of acoustic clarity. For this reason i can see very well why adding OTHER instruments than a guitar can be beneficial to the "texture" as you call it.


Deniz ,

I know what you mean, in a show I often favor hearing one guitar playing for dancers and always for cante'.

However I have desires to hear things I have never heard before and if I were a composer I would work on these ideas. Unfortunately for me I am pretty talentless as a writer of music, but enthusiastic for new sounds as a listener.

I was wondering today if you dislike symphonic music in general or only symphonic music with flamenco guitar? if you are the kind of curmudgeon that hates symphonic music, well then cool, I hate reaggaeton. But if you've ever sat back in your seat and let that huge wave of orchestral sound wash over you and take you away... would you mind saying which symphonic music you like, without guitar?

When I think about how flamenco guitar or ensembles or guitar would sound I start here for inspiration, with Webern's Five Movements for string quartet, this version arranged for small orchestra. If only I could write music.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 21 2012 4:49:09
 
KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: Why orchestra? (in reply to XXX

quote:

I thought there WAS some kind of artistic reason behind it which i was missing, other than that "people like it". Because people like all kinds of **** too. Doesnt make it any valuable.


To me the value lays within the interaction of sounds. Also the sharing and interaction of thoughts and expression between more than one person.

The search and sometimes creation of something that's of greater value than the sum of its parts is artistic reason enough for me.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 21 2012 9:10:13
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: Why orchestra? (in reply to estebanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana
I was wondering today if you dislike symphonic music in general or only symphonic music with flamenco guitar?


Weirdly enough i was into classcial and orchestral music as a kid. Ive been to few classical concerts and enjoyed them. This again will sound weird, but i love the sound when they tune their instruments at the beginning. And they use no tuners haha, such weird guys! (nvm thats just a sidekick to those tuner slaves;))
But in general i prefer solo pieces over orchestral symphonies. When i want to experience this "multi layer" polyphonic effect i listen to other styles of music. Acoustically speaking the range of frequencies of the classical instruments are too similar for my taste. It becomes blurry. I think flamenco with orhcestra MAY work compositionally with alot of effort and sensitivity towards the specific flamenco structure, but i dont see it working acoustically.

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Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 21 2012 10:08:52
 
Munin

 

Posts: 595
Joined: Sep. 30 2008
From: Hong Kong

RE: Why orchestra? (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ

Cante i Orquesta with Chicuelo and Miguel Poveda is a fantastic recording. Sinfonia Flamenca by Juan Carmona as well.

But these are pieces specifically composed for an orchestra. Haven't yet heard a really successful adaptation of existing compositions.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 21 2012 10:25:05
 
Adam

Posts: 1156
Joined: Dec. 6 2006
From: Hamilton, ON

RE: Why orchestra? (in reply to KMMI77

quote:

I thought there WAS some kind of artistic reason behind it which i was missing, other than that "people like it". Because people like all kinds of **** too. Doesnt make it any valuable.


But coming up with words to wrap around something doesn't make it valuable either. Everyone likes what they like. You could break down why you like something into some component reasons - "I like flamenco because it's direct," for example - but it's not an exercise I like to do, because it's clearly missing out on a lot of the reasons I like something. For example, if I say I like flamenco because it's direct, does that mean I like all direct music? Does that mean I dislike all non-direct music (or even all non-direct flamenco)? Certainly not. Musical tastes are a much more complicated beast than that.

One thing I have noticed is that, like Munin, most (or all) of the orchestra + flamenco stuff I like is the stuff that's composed to have an orchestra included. For example, Tomatito's orchestral album, where he has an orchestra with his older pieces, just sounds like the orchestra is tacked on, not too exciting.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 21 2012 15:46:19
 
estebanana

Posts: 9466
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Why orchestra? (in reply to Adam

quote:

For example, Tomatito's orchestral album, where he has an orchestra with his older pieces, just sounds like the orchestra is tacked on, not too exciting.


Most of it sound that way to me, almost all of it sounds like an after thought.

Deniz, I have identified your trouble:

You don't like orchestral music.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 21 2012 20:48:09
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: Why orchestra? (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ

Tastes do not exist in a vacuum. Tastes are acquired, developed, cultivated etc and there are always specific reasons behind that to do so, even when dealing with tastes happens intuitively without much conscious thinking. Thinking about it gives you a better understanding of it if you CARE TO DO SO. It is of course not obligatory in order to attribute a personal value to a song and i never said such a thing either. I also dont want to explain "THE musical taste" my aim here was merely to get a grip on wtf is going on with this orchestra trend we are experiencing here

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 22 2012 10:03:08
 
estebanana

Posts: 9466
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Why orchestra? (in reply to XXX

quote:

my aim here was merely to get a grip on wtf is going on with this orchestra trend we are experiencing here


= $$$$$$$$

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 22 2012 19:37:11
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1790
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Why orchestra? (in reply to estebanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

quote:

fok music - music that originates in traditional popular culture or that is written in such a style. Folk music is typically of unknown authorship and is transmitted orally from generation to generation.


By that definition Indian classical music, Persian classical music, Greek music, Chinese music, Gamelan, large extents of Western classical music would all be folk music.
And the other problem with that definition is that in folk idioms many times the author is well known.

I guess either everything is folk music or there needs to be multiple definitions. Or folk music is like porn, I know it when I hear it.

Maybe a better way to call these folk forms is vernacular music. I always have drawn the line at a formally organized professionally performed music that is played on stage for it's own sake by a group pd artists who are specialists. Flamenco falls into that category and its been that way at least since the 19th century.


Previously you claimed "Folks musics have structures of course, but remain outside greater structures, formal structures and tend to change with time and region to a point of being unique to a particular geography or culture"....

To me this sounds very much like the roods of flamenco. All styles started as local specialties before they found a bigger audience. Up to today many local players restrict to the locally known styles only and have far less (or no) knowledge of many of the other styles. Can you tell me which % of the Spanish citizens appreciate and understand flamenco? In my opinion geography and (sub)culture are still very much entangled with flamenco.

"I always have drawn the line at a formally organized professionally performed music that is played on stage for it's own sake by a group pd artists who are specialists. Flamenco falls into that category and its been that way at least since the 19th century".

I'm not so sure flamenco transcended to art when it was commercialized in the late 19th century. Can you tell me the repertoire of those early professionals? That might have been equally restricted to "a couple of songs" as the geographical/cultural limitations you associate with folk. Despite a couple of big shots with severe overall knowledge and a huge (solo)repertoire up to the late 50ties the main if not ONLY two guitar solos accepted ON STAGE by general audience were Granainas and Zambra Mora. Do you mean to say that in the 50ties styles like Soleares and bulerias were still folk and the generally accepted Granainas and Zambra were art?

I guess the biggest contribution to the precent (overall) knowledge is the influence of television and lp's/cd's/dvd's, and the local festivals and contests (that partly also embrace local specialties) As far as i know Caña and Polo are often avoided in contests since many are not 100% sure about what belongs to what and you don't want to be caught on a mistake by the jury don't you?

"Folks musics ...tend to change with time and region to a point of being unique to a particular geography or culture"

Well, if that isn't the story of flamenco i don't know what is. Flamenco is still evolving and despite some marvelous things going on not all changes are for the good. Back in the 70-ties Paco Peñas rhythmic nuances in tientos and fandangos were unique and second to none, but over the years he lost that quality, mainly because he down-leveld to blend in with others players who joined him on stage in the 80ties and 90ties. Future young performers might even start to think flamenco origins from (latin)jazz and not from old cantes. I guess (despite a couple of all round professionals) Flamenco is still very much a "local" and (sub)cultural related event. Is a "brainy" bulerias performed by Paco de Lucia art and a passionate bulerias de Jerez performed in a private setting by a local top player folk?

Like you i don't see any artistic difference between flamenco, Indian, persian, chinese, Gamelan, balkan, rebetica, tango and all other forms of "world music"or any music at all. Personally i just make the distinction <good/bad/ok> or if you prefer <truthful/not truthful>, which happens to occur at all kinds of music. To me badly played tourist flamenco very much feels like what you described as being porn (not something i would describe as art) so in my opinion it's not the type of music that makes something art but the level of composition/performance/honesty.

For the sake of argument.... what kinds of music do you (still) consider to be folk?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 27 2012 19:47:54
 
Escribano

Posts: 6440
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Why orchestra? (in reply to Erik van Goch

quote:

For the sake of argument.... what kinds of music do you (still) consider to be folk?


Whatever these guys are dancing to... I can guarantee it's rubbish and would never work on stage, or in an orchestral setting. In fact, I would shoot them if they came within 100 yards of me. F*****g morris dancers.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 27 2012 19:52:29
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1790
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Why orchestra? (in reply to Escribano

That was basically what i had in mind as well.....i've seen a lot of crap like that while waiting for the fallowing flamenco performance (which often happened to be crap as well) :-)

But would it become art if enough people practiced it worldwide fallowing the rules involved?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 27 2012 19:58:26
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Why orchestra? (in reply to Erik van Goch

quote:

Can you tell me which % of the Spanish citizens appreciate and understand flamenco?


Very few. Even here in Andalucia. You´ll be surprised that the number is that low. Here in western Andalucia, (Cadiz, Sevilla, Huelva) there are people appreciating flamenco, but when you go to Granada, Jaen and Almeria, this number drops to close to nothing. Especially in rural zones. Outside Andalucia..... Hardly anything.
In general, outside west Andalucia, Flamenco is something you find in small environments in cities.

IMHO, all this folk, versus not folk discussion is stupid and is mainly discussed by people not liking the category folk and which are very afraid that they should fall into that category themselves. I´ve played different kinds of folk music all my life (and rock, classical, punk, freaky etc.) and I´m proud of playing folk music. It has roots and culture. You can feel it and you can touch it and its not posh like all this world music, ethnic, etc.
Flamencos are very afraid of the word folkmusic. uuuuuhhhhhhhhh. So they dress up and put flamenco into environments like the Sevilla bienal, and there, IMHO, flamenco dies.
Roots flamenco, like what they did in Jerez and there about in the 60th (watch rito y geografia del cante) has all the ingredients of good folk music. And it rocks 100 times more than some posh flamenco performance in a big theater in Sevilla (Granada, Cordoba, Madrid etc.) where people show up in their fine dress to see and to be seen and to bla bla.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 28 2012 8:02:53
 
mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: Why orchestra? (in reply to Anders Eliasson

here's some folklore musik




I'm sure not many folks are aware of this celebrations. Unlike alot slobber with folklorshiat sevillanas

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"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 28 2012 8:52:59
 
michel

Posts: 315
Joined: Apr. 14 2008
From: france

RE: Why orchestra? (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

I´ve played different kinds of folk music all my life (and rock, classical, punk, freaky etc.) and I´m proud of playing folk music. It has roots and culture. You can feel it and you can touch it and its not posh like all this world music, ethnic, etc.

well said Anders
I don't understand what's so embarrassing about folkmusic, not "cool" enough?
i also enjoy hungarian, bavarian, swiss, french, american and african etc. folk music. everything what's played straight out of the heart.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 28 2012 9:12:36
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Why orchestra? (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ

quote:

here's some folklore musik

This kind of music is actually more popular in Spain than flamenco.

AND .... This is really 100 times more popular than flamenco here in Andalucia:



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 28 2012 10:31:20
 
mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: Why orchestra? (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

AND .... This is really 100 times more popular than flamenco here in Andalucia:

At least you're not saying that this music IS flamenco.

For my corto entendimiento, i'd consider folk music as very connected with popular religious celebrations. So in this case I'd add Saeta and Villancicos to the folkos music genre.

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"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 28 2012 11:18:51
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Why orchestra? (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ

quote:

i'd consider folk music as very connected with popular religious celebrations


hmmmmm. Thats on your account only.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 28 2012 16:12:49
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3626
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Why orchestra? (in reply to Escribano

quote:

morris dancers


you know there's a theory (i dunno if it's true) that the origin of morris dancing is moorish dancing, that the name "morris dancing" is an anglicisation/corruption of "moorish dancing" and that it originally came over here in the Elizabethan era. That's supposedly why the bells on the ankles are similar to ankle bells in middle eastern and persian dancing.

i dunno if morris dancing preserves the purity of pre-reconquest al-andalus proto-flamenco dancing.... or not!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 28 2012 18:38:17
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3626
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Why orchestra? (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

IMHO, all this folk, versus not folk discussion is stupid and is mainly discussed by people not liking the category folk and which are very afraid that they should fall into that category themselves. I´ve played different kinds of folk music all my life (and rock, classical, punk, freaky etc.) and I´m proud of playing folk music. It has roots and culture. You can feel it and you can touch it and its not posh like all this world music, ethnic, etc.


one of my great-grandfathers worked all his life as a farm labourer and knew (according to my grandad) "several hundred old folk songs", and he also played some kind of squeezy instrument for dancing. He never went to school, never learnt to read or write. My grandad only remembered a few fragments of the songs, he wasn't really interested, which i think is a shame. The old rural popular music of ordinary people now sounds so odd to our urban electric lives, but i'm proud of my roots and history and have a lot of respect for folk music.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 28 2012 18:43:59
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3446
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Why orchestra? (in reply to estebanana

I looked at this thread a little at the beginning, but lost interest. Reading more, I find it fascinating.

Musically I have always been a hexagonal peg, fitting neither round holes nor square ones. When I was a kid trumpet player my symphonic friends would ask why I would hang out with "those guys that play out of tune" and my jazz friends would ask why I would spend hours in rehearsal and concert, "just reading notes off a page."

I soon gave up trying to explain that Miles Davis wasn't playing out of tune, he was playing exactly what he wanted to, and after ten seconds you could confidently say, "That's Miles." And I gave up trying to tell my jazz buddies, that if those notes were well written and well played, the whole thing could take off and soar like a great airship.

Flamenco with orchestra is often a clash of these two sensibilities, being successful as neither.

Cante is the soul of flamenco because the singer individualizes stock material. He or she takes a letra, done by dozens of others, and an equally hackneyed melody, compas and harmony, and produces a moving performance by personalizing them.

The great symphonic composers take a prevailing style, and impose their vision on it, sometimes with revolutionary effect--but the players must subordinate themselves to the vision of the composer, and to a lesser extent to the conductor, and play in a unified style.

Each genre imposes its limitations. The cantaor can't contrast a flute solo with full orchestra and crashing percussion. The second chair violist in a Beethoven symphony can't pursue a sudden inspiration. The means of expression are limited to the particular genre.

To my ear, the solo flamenco guitarist's means of expression are more limited than the cantaor's.

"Well," you may say, "Miles's 'Echoes of Spain' album with orchestra was a great success, artistically and commercially." Yes, but the guitar can't totally dominate the orchestra the way Miles could with his trumpet in the recording studio. So instead of dominant soloist with orchestral support, you often get a mishmash, or even the guitarist becomng less expressive in an attempt to integrate with the orchestra.

This is not to say there aren't good flamenco guitar/orchestra pieces, nor to disagree with estebanana's suggestions that there may be more fruitful approaches. Just my take on the situation.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 28 2012 21:48:48
 
chester

Posts: 891
Joined: Oct. 29 2010
 

RE: Why orchestra? (in reply to estebanana

quote:

One idea that has yet to me mined is large flamenco guitar ensembles. Ensembles with perhaps 12, 16 or 20 flamenco guitars working together to create a new kind of flamenco sound. Imagine 12 flamenco guitars in various tunings and capo stops engaged to show the whole textual range that flamenco guitars can play. Some guitars could have lowered tunings which could include bass notes like D, C ,B, A below standard E. And other guitars capo stopped up at the 9th fret to show that timbre of the guitar.


This (great) idea has been haunting me for a while. While I'm not about to write any such piece, I was reminded of one with a similar idea. Hope you enjoy it.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 18 2013 5:21:51
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