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How do you feel rhythm?   You are logged in as Guest
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Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

How do you feel rhythm? 

How do you internalize the pulse of music? How do you feel the rhythm?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 27 2005 4:04:14
 
duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: How do you feel rhythm? (in reply to Miguel de Maria

I always belive in listening.

My first revelation came while trying to learn the basic 12 count for solea. I felt very strange at first. This 12 thing seemed so stiff and stale untill i had HEARD the music enough without trying to find the beat.

1. The accents are IN the music
2. it can be heard without anybody doing palmas or cajon etc along with the guitar.
Of course this would be very tricky if you start out with the most advanced modern players.
but in older (50-70´s) solo guitar it´s easyer to hear.

In siguiriyas i also discoverd that i did tap my foot at 1*2*3* *4* * 5*.
along with the falsetas. This is intresting cause at that time i didn´t know what compas siguiriyas had. Some teachers that got to listen to some siguriyas belived it to be rubato.

since im no musical wonder of nature i got lost a lot before things started to make sens.
and i still get very lost sometimes.
How do i internalize the rythm.
By hearing it.
Listen ,listen, listen
If you always learn the rythm in an intelectual maner you´ll probably never
feel at easy with the rythm.
You can´t think about where 12 is or -is 7 8 now?. while playing.
you should just flow with the music..in the music.

Since most of us aren´t born into gypsy families i belive it´s good to sit down and sort things out in the begining. the diffrent counts etc and learn how to feel them.
But to be able to feel i belive it´s more important to listen.

I hear a lot of the rythms like.

this is bulerias for me.

BOOM chak a lack BOOM chack chack (pause) BOOM BOOM chacka BOOM chacka
Hope you´ll understad this.

If you listen enough to a style of music it will after a few years start to come out in
everything you do. you phrase in a 12 count flamenco maner.
if you hum a melodie of the top of your head if will fit a flamenco rythm.

I don´t know how to end this so ill just stop.
I belive there is as many answers to this as there are players so..

Henrik

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 27 2005 5:29:10
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: How do you feel rhythm? (in reply to duende

Yeah...I agree with Henrik. I think it's really more about listening, rather than sitting down and practising mechanically.
A lot of the rhythm and structure can be heard in the cante and I think a good way of feeling it, is to learn a few phrases of cante...either phonetically or just learn the "tune" and hear in your head how it fits with the chords and the rhythm.
There is no doubt that Bulerias is still difficult, but I'm starting to be able to put on a CD at a random point in the track and pick up the compás instinctively, without counting or anything...you sort of latch on to familiar patterns.
I think that's how Bulerias doesn't just "click" or you suddenly see the light.
You sort of absorb more and more patterns over the years IMO.
But I'm nowhere near to being fluent in it yet, if something odd happens then I still get thrown and have to pick it up again.

cheers

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 27 2005 8:20:29
Guest

RE: How do you feel rhythm? (in reply to Miguel de Maria

Listen to the cante, it is everything.

Sean
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 27 2005 14:13:28
 
gshaviv

Posts: 272
Joined: Mar. 22 2005
From: Israel

RE: How do you feel rhythm? (in reply to Miguel de Maria

To join the crowd, listen, listen, listen...

My teacher told me that I will start feeling the rythm when I can sing it. Not that I'm a cantaor or anything like that (I sing like a crow). Its that if you can hum or sing the music in your head, you've got it.

I have a few gigs of flamenco music on my ipod, I marked the genre field of each song as buleria, seguiriya etc. I then at days just listened to one palo until it drove me crazy. But you end up internalyzing the music.

Having the disadvantage of not being born in Spain, that's the only way you can get the music, just turn off the other pop stuff and listen flamenco all day.

_____________________________

Guy
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 27 2005 18:47:44
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: How do you feel rhythm? (in reply to Miguel de Maria

This is all good. I am talking about rhythm in general, though, not in internalizing the characteristics of a particular form or dance, such as bulerias. Ricardo talked about how rhythm is really the essential part of all good music. At first, I thought he was wrong, but then I started to think that really excellent music, whether bulerias or Bach, whether 200 bpm or Lento, has that perfect pulse. That pulse that runs under and through the melody. As Ron pointed out, even the cante jondo, supposedly "libre" relies upon an instinctive and profound understanding of rhythm. A good rock band, which plays 3 chords, is tight. That tightness and rhythmic precision is the overarching element that makes it good, just like someone can play 2 chords of bulerias and it can be awesome.

Most people think that rumbas are an easy type of music to play, but I question that. I have been learning some of the GK instrumental songs, and it's not particularly easy to always understand exactly what is going on. I think it requires the same intensive study as any other palo. Probably the lack of rhythmic sophistication is the reason North American rumba players don't sound right, although all of the other elements are there. For example, a lot of people say rumba is 4/4, but to me the pulse is clearly cut time, 2/2. Just like people say bulerias is a 12 count form, but to me that's horribly misleading. Sometimes it sounds like like two triplets, sometimes it sounds like 6 beats, sometimes it sounds like basically teh six beats but with a syncopation in the first half.

On yet another note, I have been practicing singing the Beny More (Cuban) song Yiri Yiri Bon. I was singing along with Eliades Ochoa on the Cd, and although I could intuitively match him note for note, he comes in one part after I would. I haven't really figured out why, but there is a reason. It sounds right when he does it, and it doesn't sound right when I do it.

I guess I have diverged from the topic slightly. But I do wonder, why is that some people can seem to really manifest and exhibit a true pulse, and other people can only do a pale imitation? Tom Whiteley said when you have the "feel" of rhythm, you don't need a metronome. The things I have discovered regarding guitar technique and singing are pointing me to this direction. You don't have to build a lot of things; there are a lot of things that you can already do, and you just have to get in touch with them. But how do you do that? One thing, I don't think this is readily achieved through conventional means.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 27 2005 20:31:42
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: How do you feel rhythm? (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

It sounds right when he does it, and it doesn't sound right when I do it.


Yeah Mike,
This is what has bugged me for years now.
Forget about the complex stuff...I'm talking about pretty simple stuff.
There is a sound there that is so hard to capture.
BTW...I agree entirely on the Rumba point.
It's so easy to put it down as a basic and pretty easy rhythm.
But it's not if you want to play convincingly, whether it's with an Andalucian flavour or a Camargue one.
Very subtle and difficult to get right IMO.

cheers

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 27 2005 20:56:48
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: How do you feel rhythm? (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

But how do you do that? One thing, I don't think this is readily achieved through conventional means.


Personally, I try to view the music by trying to integrate it into what I would regard as decent lounge bar music that any folk singer or pop band would do.
That is, if I can't tap my foot to what I'm playing, in a fairly natural way..then I know there is something wrong with my understanding of it and it needs more work.
Like Ricardo said, even the general public, having no knowledge of Flamenco and compás, can sort of feel when something is tight and when it's not.
Flamenco is an enjoyment, fun and relaxation for the Flamenco Andalucians, not a boring and complicated technical exercise.
Remember...this is just theoretical...I can't easily put in ito practice, although I think this view is steadily proving fruitful in my own playing.

cheers

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 27 2005 21:15:06
Guest

RE: How do you feel rhythm? (in reply to Ron.M

The other day I was with a guitarist and singer who were rehearsing soleá de Cádiz for a show. She was very unhappy about his playing: it was perfectly in compas and tone, so he was baffled. She asked my opinion and I said I thought the accompaniment had an aire de Alcalá rather than Cádiz. She said "Of course, that´s it!". The guitarist was still none the wiser. We repaired to my flat where I put on every recording of soleá de Cádiz I have. The difference in aire is very clear: it is a kind of slow gallop (within the structure of soleá compás) and the guitarist who represents it best is Felix de Utréra. The guitarist learned in in 2 secs and she was happy.

If such subtle differences can be so important, them rhythm must be of fundamental importance. I read once that a famous classical composer said that aire is simply a product of syncopation. This sounds a bit crude, but the more I think about it, the more sense it makes.

Sean
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 27 2005 21:48:35
 
Thomas Whiteley

 

Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: How do you feel rhythm? (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

How do you internalize the pulse of music? How do you feel the rhythm?


Once you understand how to play the technique, the rhythms, timing, and emphasis, the music becomes like a heart beat – your heart beat!

Years ago when I was in a national competition for piano my mentor told me, “Play as if you are playing for dancers”! I envisioned dancers and played to that vision and it changed the feeling to the point that I received good scores for my performance. In fact I tell others to do something similar – visualize dancers. It also works for flamenco – if you visualize the right dancers!

I do like to emulate cante when I play guitar solos. That works well for me.

When I am playing solo, or for cante or baile, I just listen and enjoy the mood. I do not think of what I am doing. I just "enjoy the ride"!

_____________________________

Tom
http://home.comcast.net/~flamencoguitar/flamenco.html
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 27 2005 23:17:08
 
Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: How do you feel rhythm? (in reply to Guest

quote:

a famous classical composer said that aire is simply a product of syncopation.


wow Sean i never tought of it like that before but i think that that composer is on to something.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 4 2005 18:12:52
 
Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005
 

RE: How do you feel rhythm? (in reply to Miguel de Maria

Its only math. And not very difficult math. Training is all.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 4 2005 21:52:00
 
Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: How do you feel rhythm? (in reply to Doitsujin

Oh great My favourite subject !!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 5 2005 3:00:26

ToddK

 

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004
 

RE: How do you feel rhythm? (in reply to Miguel de Maria

You dont have to know any math to have
great rhythm/pulse.

TK

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 7 2005 7:56:15
 
Ricardo

Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: How do you feel rhythm? (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

How do you internalize the pulse of music? How do you feel the rhythm?


Practice with a metronome on your own. Learn how to control subdivision. Then try to feel it with others. Hang out with those you recognize as having better than average tempo. It rubs off.

quote:

Tom Whiteley said when you have the "feel" of rhythm, you don't need a metronome.


Paco de Lucia still keeps one in his case. We saw it in there, backstage, a few years ago. Surprising, but inspiring.

Ricardo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 7 2005 17:52:21
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: How do you feel rhythm? (in reply to Ricardo

well, even paco de lucia cannot count more accurate than a metronome... ok, maybe if the battery is low
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 8 2005 8:01:28
 
Ryan002

 

Posts: 173
Joined: Oct. 18 2005
From: Singapore

RE: How do you feel rhythm? (in reply to Miguel de Maria

Here in the far east, wannabe Flamenco players are faced with massive rythm issues. Apart from the Phillipines and India, the rest of us have musical traditions which are focused on long ligato phrases that make use of elaborate dynamics. Listen to the Chinese songs on the pentatonic scale and you'll see what I mean. Flamenco, being heavily rythm driven, is possibly a polar opposite. In an environment where people struggle to feel rythm in American Country and Folk, let alone Flamenco, it's a nightmare. It is my honest opinion that anyone who grows up under the influence of Chinese or Japanese music will never fully exorcise the innate obsession with melody, and any of us who hope to be flamenco guitarists will just have to deal with the fact that we will always sound a little bit off. (It can also be a good thing and make for a pretty unique sound. On rare occassions.)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2005 11:22:58
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: How do you feel rhythm? (in reply to Miguel de Maria

Being half-Asian myself, I have noticed the glaring lack of rhythm in our peoples and wondered what that was all about. I saw a hip-hop/Taiko group (don't ask) here in Phoenix--a bunch of young Japanese/Americans. They played those great Taiko drums but also rapped and danced around. My wife and I (she's half-Korean) both agreed that Asians just really shouldn't do that. It's like our hips are fused or something.

But it probably has more to do with cultural traditions. If you've ever been to black folks' get-togethers, they all dance; while that seems to be pretty rare with Japanese, Chinese, Korean, etc....
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2005 15:37:19
 
Ryan002

 

Posts: 173
Joined: Oct. 18 2005
From: Singapore

RE: How do you feel rhythm? (in reply to Miguel de Maria

Wow...I find it difficult to imagine a blend of hip hop and Taiko
But I won't ask, as requested.

Anyhow, I suspect that our general lack of rythm stems from the fact that in China and Japan (both culturally related) the "courtly" instruments were always string instruments and the drums relegated to "peasant" status (like for use in Dragon Boat races or Lion Dance festivals.) Chinese dieties who do appear with instruments almost always carry a string instrument like the Pipa or Zither, which should be a clear indication of a hierachy of instruments in our culture. So the end result would be development in the melody area (with so many string, lead instruments) and under-development in terms of percussion.

More rugged or "frontier" cultures like the Spanish Gaucho traditions probably emphasized easily ported or crafted instruments, inevitably meaning percussion instruments. Hence, they have rythm, we have melody.

(PS I am not suggesting we are in any way superior or inferior musically, or that percussion is somehow more "underdog". Merely contemplating the widely divergent ways music can evolve.)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 19 2005 15:18:23
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: How do you feel rhythm? (in reply to Miguel de Maria

Ryan,
your theory makes sense--also, think of the Northern European classical music tradition, whose proponents are not really known for their sense of rhythm or grooviness. The musical traditions with a strong percussion, such as many African forms with their drums, Cuban, and even flamenco, which uses the palmas as its percussion "instrument" are certainly the home of great rhythmic skill and development. If Asian traditions encourage the development of melody, the Northern European was a hotbed for harmony.

However, I'm not sure that portability infers a rhythmic quality, because guitars, flutes, harmonicas, ocarinas, etc., are all portable but have no particular bias toward rhythm. For example, if you know many classical guitarists you will note that their instruments are nearly as portable as ours, yet they are not noted for their rhythmic skills. Nor would the converse--for pianists are noted for their lack of rhythm nearly as much as guitarists.

Probably two factors bias toward rhythm--ensemble and percussion, particularly when in combination. You might add dance in as a third element. The presence of a beat is a "rule" that everyone can follow in order to play in an orderly way.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 19 2005 16:37:56
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